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Crawley: How to deal with anti-science BRS2017

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
None of the tweets I posted carried any of my personal opinion - it was just a statement of what was happening there just like I have done for other sessions.
Screenshots of your tweets have been saved in this thread. While I can't be completely sure that your "Inspiring!" at the end of a tweet recounting Dr Esther Crawley accusing ME patients of abuse wasn't her opinion of herself as well, in that case it is very clearly your opinion.

index.php


By replying to me and abusing me, nothing is going to happen.
I don't expect a response (your post has the feel of the typical forum hit-and-run), but I haven't seen any indication that you were abused. Unless, of course, Esther Crawley's presentation has understandably caused you to redefine abuse to include things like polite objections and scientific discourse.

I will, if interested, will look at it.
So you'll heartily endorse claims of abusive patients as "Inspiring!" on social media, but might or might not be arsed to read an article or two that explains our actual objections to blatantly bad science. Some other good reading material might be the FOIA tribunal decision where the judges completely dismissed the claims of Crawley's supposedly-abused colleagues as having no basis.

I don't expect you to know anything about the problems with Esther Crawley's work, or the similarly poor work of some of her colleagues which she also defends, or how they demonize patients to distract from the complaints about the poor quality of their research. You are not involved in ME, after all. But as someone intelligent enough to be a doctor, I do expect you to know that you don't know enough about the situation to endorse a blatantly one-sided view of it.
 
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Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
So you'll heartily endorse claims of abusive patients as "Inspiring!" on social media
If someone supposedly an expert in a field, come and present to a completely new audience talking about their work and experience, it would be easy to believe what they are presenting as true, especially when the audience is not versed at all in the field . It's pretty much like Trump saying 'believe me'.

The nephrologists audience is the best audience of them all and it suited Crawley. She got to bad mouth all who spoke against her and her research. She got a sympathetic audience. With some 'lluck' they will support her next time she gets under attack.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
If someone supposedly an expert in a field, come and present to a completely new audience talking about their work and experience, it would be easy to believe what they are presenting as true, especially when the audience is not versed at all in the field.
In the case of the science, perhaps. But portraying a large group of patients as abusive and irrational? That's not acceptable with any disease, or even a plausible accusation to make.
It's pretty much like Trump saying 'believe me'.
I suppose some of the more trusting and unquestioning people are going to ... I just didn't think it would include doctors at a scientific conference!
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
In the case of the science, perhaps. But portraying a large group of patients as abusive and irrational? That's not acceptable with any disease, or even a plausible accusation to make.

Agreed, it was dirty and how dare she?

I suppose some of the more trusting and unquestioning people are going to ... I just didn't think it would include doctors at a scientific conference!

Drs at the nephrology conference were presented wtih one side of the story, which we all know is far right. This is how the BPS operates, they don't care about dirty strategies, as long as it is effective. I hope we are, in 2017, in a good position to respond to this kind of attack as a patient and scientific community. How I don't know.
 
Messages
66
This is evidence of the contempt and outrageous psychological projection and manipulation *being used to undermine a severe chronic illness and justified concerns.

Surely no-one with any integrity, medical or otherwise, can support such injustice and harm to patients welfare.

With thanks to all who are brilliantly calling this out.

*Edited to reflect all those who engage in this unethical behaviour.
 
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TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
This is starting to look real familiar:
Exercise, lifestyle, King's College ...

I will, if interested, will look at it.
I would suggest that this fellow and his fellow fellows get interested asap before they become one of the ships that the BPS crew jump to. Looks like someone's trying to get their fingers into a kidney pie.
 
Messages
78
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Hi Dr Edwards and everyone here

I am this Sridharan fellow! I came across this thread as a result of replies I have been getting on twitter and hence, I thought I will clear some things up...

First of all, I am not employed by BRS to tweet nor do I know Dr Crawley. I have never heard of her before this morning. And certainly, I am not employed by her to tweet her session. You may have seen that I have tweeted other sessions as well from the conference and I have done this for many other meetings previously. None of the tweets I posted carried any of my personal opinion - it was just a statement of what was happening there just like I have done for other sessions. To clarify, I am not a paediatrician and certainly do not know about CFS/ME as much as you people do. Hence, I refrain from commenting on which research is valid regarding ME.

By replying to me and abusing me, nothing is going to happen. I don't know Dr Crawley and she is not in my network. By doing this, you are shooting the proverbial 'messenger'. None of my tweets endorsed her studies or her views. I am sorry I had to block some of you guys only because they were either abusing me or trying to abuse Dr Crawley through my tweets. I do not want to be a medium for it. If I had tweeted any of your talks and this happened to you, I would have done the same. I understand you have a lot of differences with her competency and research but I am not in any way endorsing it either. You may also noticed that I hadn't blocked some of the people who replied because they politely pointed me to Dr Edwards' blog to know the truth - which I am OK with. I will, if interested, will look at it.

Going through this thread, I get a sense that you all are decent people trying to take a stand against what you think is wrong. I commend that. So, please stop abusing me - I was just tweeting a conference session which I attended. That's all there is to it. It is not related to ISN Social media task force as I was tweeting from my own account and not as ISN member. I have taken all the tweets down so that there is no further dissemination of the material that was presented by her through my account.

I am a neutral person in this issue and certainly not knowledgeable enough to support either side. I wish you luck in whatever your goals are. Thanks and I hope you all will leave me and ISN out of this issue.

P.S. I am Dr Siva Sridharan and I am a nephrologist. I attended BRS conference just as a delegate like everyone else. I tweet some of the sessions I attend in the conference and I am the one who tweeted Dr Crawley's session.

Thank you for your response, Dr Sridharan. Abuse is never appropriate (though it is a sad and common experience on social media these days), and I apologise for any abuse you may have experienced. I hope you will see that the majority of us are respectful (though incredibly frustrated by the vilification of an entire community, and the misrepresentation of facts). Thank you for taking the time to read this thread and being open to reading Dr Edwards' blog.
 

Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
Hi Dr Edwards and everyone here

I am this Sridharan fellow! I came across this thread as a result of replies I have been getting on twitter and hence, I thought I will clear some things up.

First of all, I am not employed by BRS to tweet nor do I know Dr Crawley. I have never heard of her before this morning. And certainly, I am not employed by her to tweet her session. You may have seen that I have tweeted other sessions as well from the conference and I have done this for many other meetings previously. None of the tweets I posted carried any of my personal opinion - it was just a statement of what was happening there just like I have done for other sessions. To clarify, I am not a paediatrician and certainly do not know about CFS/ME as much as you people do. Hence, I refrain from commenting on which research is valid regarding ME.

By replying to me and abusing me, nothing is going to happen. I don't know Dr Crawley and she is not in my network. By doing this, you are shooting the proverbial 'messenger'. None of my tweets endorsed her studies or her views. I am sorry I had to block some of you guys only because they were either abusing me or trying to abuse Dr Crawley through my tweets. I do not want to be a medium for it. If I had tweeted any of your talks and this happened to you, I would have done the same. I understand you have a lot of differences with her competency and research but I am not in any way endorsing it either. You may also noticed that I hadn't blocked some of the people who replied because they politely pointed me to Dr Edwards' blog to know the truth - which I am OK with. I will, if interested, will look at it.

Going through this thread, I get a sense that you all are decent people trying to take a stand against what you think is wrong. I commend that. So, please stop abusing me - I was just tweeting a conference session which I attended. That's all there is to it. It is not related to ISN Social media task force as I was tweeting from my own account and not as ISN member. I have taken all the tweets down so that there is no further dissemination of the material that was presented by her through my account.

I am a neutral person in this issue and certainly not knowledgeable enough to support either side. I wish you luck in whatever your goals are. Thanks and I hope you all will leave me and ISN out of this issue.

P.S. I am Dr Siva Sridharan and I am a nephrologist. I attended BRS conference just as a delegate like everyone else. I tweet some of the sessions I attend in the conference and I am the one who tweeted Dr Crawley's session.

Hi @Nephrofan and thank you for coming on here and explaining the situation.
I am really sorry that you feel abused through the tweets etc you have received regarding the postings of Esther Crawley's lecture and I can see how you unwittingly and innocently have been caught up in the middle of what is a very complex and emotive situation.

It would be very helpful to us as a community if you could provide details of the abuse directed at yourself and at Esther Crawley through you. The reason I ask for this is that Esther Crawley and a number of her colleagues have over many years painted a picture of ME patients as being abusive, militant and dangerous even. A whole community of millions of patients has been branded as this as a result.

Last year when a Court ordered the PACE trial data to be released, the judge found that these claims of abusive patients were completely unfounded and no examples could be supplied to the court of abuse other than 1 instance of one researcher being heckled at a lecture.

If we as a community knew what the abuse was we would be able to denounce it, call it out and say not in our name. But we are never told, we are never given the opportunity to denounce it and take a stand against it. We as a community of patients are just labelled as abusive, vexatious, militant for what may be the actions of a couple of people, who may or may not be connected to the ME patient community and for which no examples could be produced as evidence before a court of law. So it would be very helpful to know what the abuse was and who by.

Feelings run extremely strongly within the ME community regarding the philosophical model and belief system which Esther Crawley subscribes to and not without good reason. I really hope that you will do your own reading and research to understand why. It is clear from the lecture you were given a very one sided story as a story not supported by scientist, researchers and experts in the field of ME nor the patient community. I hope you are sufficiently intrigued to question what you were shown in that lecture. Why there might be such a strong reaction and what is the other side of the story because I am sure with a scientific mind you will be deeply troubled by what you find and what was presented to you.

Many people outside the ME community do not realise that patients have died and do die as a result of this belief system that Esther Crawley and her colleagues present and adhere to, it has had a huge influence on the medical profession, resulting in medical neglect and in some cases abuse of ME patients. All of us are continually on the receiving end of prejudice and often hostility as a result of flawed beliefs and flawed research undertaken not by scientists but generally psychiatrist, psychologist pushing a theory that the belief in. If you would like me to provide examples of this please ask. The impact on our lives is huge, the suffering beyond belief.

Many of our community are very seriously ill, bed ridden for years, unable to speak, eat or function, the views that Esther Crawley give of ME are just insulting and do not reflect the reality of this disease.

Many of our community feel very strongly regarding the work of Esther Crawley as it is experimenting with techniques on Children and Young people, techniques or practices which have left many 1000's of ME patients bedridden inflicting in some cases severe harm and disability. It is right that we as a community try to protect others from such harms but especially, especially our children and young people.

Esther Crawley has herself been responsible for causing families severe distress when children are severely ill and do not improve with her methods and she has effectively labelled them as mentally ill and in addition seen parents, particular mothers as causing or perpetuating the child's illness. There is nothing scientific about any of this, just a belief.

It is not a handful of militants who oppose her research but 1000's of patients, carers, scientists and researchers. For example, the slides from the lecture she uses the example of MEGA, the patient community were not against MEGA because they were against science they were largely against MEGA because of Esther Crawley's involvement and her largely anti scientific stance.

The community have absolutely no confidence in her given her unscientific stance, the community had absolutely valid and entirely justified concerns. The petition against MEGA got far more signatures than those in support of MEGA, this is not a minority of militant patients but the majority of a very ill patient community giving a resounding message of no confidence in a researcher who has caused and contiues to cause harm to our community and peddle some very unscientifc beleifs regarding this disease to the wider medical community.

It is very telling that Esther Crawley and colleagues are usually missing from the scientic conferences on ME/ CFS, they continue to ignore any biological and scientific advancements in the ME field, do not work collaboratively with scientifc researcher in the field and continue to peddle a belief system which is quite proposterous when you look at all the biological evidence from many eminent scientist from around the world.

What we as a community are fighting for is science and for a stop to be put to their anti science aproach and methods which is harming patients.

Esther crawley and Colleagues are making themselves the laughing stock of the scientifc commuity from which they have become increasingly isolated as with scientifc advancements their approaches appear more akin to magical thinking or religious beliefs.

Please, take a good look around this forum, Do we look anti science? please check out the threads on all the various scientific research papers. You will find many of our community who themselves are scientists, or are very capable of scientifc thinking, our objection is indeed to unscientific thinking.

Please reflect on the slide that Esther Crawley presented giving the following as factors involved in developing ME.
Education - read through the threads, do we as a community seem uneducated?
Criminal- do we seem criminal?
Drug Addiction- do we give the impression of being a community of drug or alcohol adicts
Abuse
and then other social conditions such as housing.

The image that she is seeking to portray that this disease is a result of social deprivation and mental health factors is a myth and gives completely the wrong impression as to the nature and cause of this disease. This is misleading and harmful. In fact she is likely researching fatigue caused by depression, not ME. Please reflect on what you see here, do we look like we fit into the patient group she is seeking to portray?

Conscientious, loving parents, suddenly find themselves suspected of and at times accused of harming their child, keeping or making them ill, by people such as Esther Crawley who refuse to accept the scientific evidence regarding ME because they want their beliefs to be true so badly that they ignore anything that may contradict their beliefs and practices. It is devastating.

I hope that you will take the time and trouble to research and understand more and that you will form an opinion and not remain neutral, an informed opinion based on science but also because you have a conscience and do not like to see people mistreated and harmed in the way this community has been.

Thank you and once again I am sorry if you have felt abused by anyone.
 

Keith Geraghty

Senior Member
Messages
491
why apologise to this chap - he blocked me for simply retweeting his tweets and now he has the audacity to claim that those be blocked were abusing him or Crawley through his tweets

he needs to now apolgise to me for this statement - pass that on to him from an ME researcher

he quickly took the tweets down most likely because he saw patients and others were spreading truth ie what Crawley was writing

this chap has swallowed the Crawley teaching lesson hook line and sinker - saying he was abused, please him to give examples of the abuse he sufferered yesterday ?
 

Comet

I'm Not Imaginary
Messages
694
Going through this thread, I get a sense that you all are decent people trying to take a stand against what you think is wrong. I commend that. So, please stop abusing me - I was just tweeting a conference session which I attended. That's all there is to it. It is not related to ISN Social media task force as I was tweeting from my own account and not as ISN member. I have taken all the tweets down so that there is no further dissemination of the material that was presented by her through my account.

Thank you @Nephrofan for taking the time to post here and clarify. Abuse is unacceptable and should never happen. I am sorry to hear that you may have experienced this.

If you have any interest in patients who are suffering, sometimes for decades, and are desperate to get help, I would ask you to think about this: Why does EC need to bury the data behind her trials? If the data holds up to scrutiny, why not release it and silence us with science once and for all?

I realize you have other interests, just pointing out a small piece of the patient side of this unnecessarily, yet ridiculously complicated story.

Thank you for your time.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
By replying to me and abusing me, nothing is going to happen. I don't know Dr Crawley and she is not in my network. By doing this, you are shooting the proverbial 'messenger'. None of my tweets endorsed her studies or her views. I am sorry I had to block some of you guys only because they were either abusing me or trying to abuse Dr Crawley through my tweets.

It is not abuse to challenge a message being given especially when the message is so stigmatizing for patients. Yet you are buying into the message that Crawley is pushing by accusing patients of abusing you by responding and challenging.

These accusations of abuse within the medical community are extremely harmful to patients who are already dismissed and ignored by doctors. This message simply tells doctors it is ok to ignore ME patients and ignore complaints about treatment or lack of it because 'they abuse people'.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
why apologise to this chap - he blocked me for simply retweeting his tweets and now he has the audacity to claim that those be blocked were abusing him or Crawley through his tweets
Thank you for clarifying. We can now add "retweeting" to the long list of crimes we're accused of :rolleyes:

he needs to now apolgise to me for this statement - pass that on to him from an ME researcher
Indeed, he seems to be gleefully diving in with Crawley & Co in making false and harmful accusations against ill and disabled people. I can only hope that was not his intent, and he merely got confused by an apparent expert describing disagreement as abuse. But as it stands, his accusations against yourself and others are inappropriate and possibly even libelous.

Why does EC need to bury the data behind her trials? If the data holds up to scrutiny, why not release it and silence us with science once and for all?
Good question. SMILE ended years ago, and Crawley managed to publish two papers of anecdotal fluff she gathered from it 2 years ago, yet continues to fail to publish the main results. Perhaps she'd be able to get around to publishing if she didn't waste her time touring the country to disparage a disease and the people who have it.
 
Messages
55
Hi @Nephrofan and thank you for coming on here and explaining the situation.
I am really sorry that you feel abused through the tweets etc you have received regarding the postings of Esther Crawley's lecture and I can see how you unwittingly and innocently have been caught up in the middle of what is a very complex and emotive situation.

It would be very helpful to us as a community if you could provide details of the abuse directed at yourself and at Esther Crawley through you. The reason I ask for this is that Esther Crawley and a number of her colleagues have over many years painted a picture of ME patients as being abusive, militant and dangerous even. A whole community of millions of patients has been branded as this as a result.

Last year when a Court ordered the PACE trial data to be released, the judge found that these claims of abusive patients were completely unfounded and no examples could be supplied to the court of abuse other than 1 instance of one researcher being heckled at a lecture.

If we as a community knew what the abuse was we would be able to denounce it, call it out and say not in our name. But we are never told, we are never given the opportunity to denounce it and take a stand against it. We as a community of patients are just labelled as abusive, vexatious, militant for what may be the actions of a couple of people, who may or may not be connected to the ME patient community and for which no examples could be produced as evidence before a court of law. So it would be very helpful to know what the abuse was and who by.

Feelings run extremely strongly within the ME community regarding the philosophical model and belief system which Esther Crawley subscribes to and not without good reason. I really hope that you will do your own reading and research to understand why. It is clear from the lecture you were given a very one sided story as a story not supported by scientist, researchers and experts in the field of ME nor the patient community. I hope you are sufficiently intrigued to question what you were shown in that lecture. Why there might be such a strong reaction and what is the other side of the story because I am sure with a scientific mind you will be deeply troubled by what you find and what was presented to you.

Many people outside the ME community do not realise that patients have died and do die as a result of this belief system that Esther Crawley and her colleagues present and adhere to, it has had a huge influence on the medical profession, resulting in medical neglect and in some cases abuse of ME patients. All of us are continually on the receiving end of prejudice and often hostility as a result of flawed beliefs and flawed research undertaken not by scientists but generally psychiatrist, psychologist pushing a theory that the belief in. If you would like me to provide examples of this please ask. The impact on our lives is huge, the suffering beyond belief.

Many of our community are very seriously ill, bed ridden for years, unable to speak, eat or function, the views that Esther Crawley give of ME are just insulting and do not reflect the reality of this disease.

Many of our community feel very strongly regarding the work of Esther Crawley as it is experimenting with techniques on Children and Young people, techniques or practices which have left many 1000's of ME patients bedridden inflicting in some cases severe harm and disability. It is right that we as a community try to protect others from such harms but especially, especially our children and young people.

Esther Crawley has herself been responsible for causing families severe distress when children are severely ill and do not improve with her methods and she has effectively labelled them as mentally ill and in addition seen parents, particular mothers as causing or perpetuating the child's illness. There is nothing scientific about any of this, just a belief.

It is not a handful of militants who oppose her research but 1000's of patients, carers, scientists and researchers. For example, the slides from the lecture she uses the example of MEGA, the patient community were not against MEGA because they were against science they were largely against MEGA because of Esther Crawley's involvement and her largely anti scientific stance.

The community have absolutely no confidence in her given her unscientific stance, the community had absolutely valid and entirely justified concerns. The petition against MEGA got far more signatures than those in support of MEGA, this is not a minority of militant patients but the majority of a very ill patient community giving a resounding message of no confidence in a researcher who has caused and contiues to cause harm to our community and peddle some very unscientifc beleifs regarding this disease to the wider medical community.

It is very telling that Esther Crawley and colleagues are usually missing from the scientic conferences on ME/ CFS, they continue to ignore any biological and scientific advancements in the ME field, do not work collaboratively with scientifc researcher in the field and continue to peddle a belief system which is quite proposterous when you look at all the biological evidence from many eminent scientist from around the world.

What we as a community are fighting for is science and for a stop to be put to their anti science aproach and methods which is harming patients.

Esther crawley and Colleagues are making themselves the laughing stock of the scientifc commuity from which they have become increasingly isolated as with scientifc advancements their approaches appear more akin to magical thinking or religious beliefs.

Please, take a good look around this forum, Do we look anti science? please check out the threads on all the various scientific research papers. You will find many of our community who themselves are scientists, or are very capable of scientifc thinking, our objection is indeed to unscientific thinking.

Please reflect on the slide that Esther Crawley presented giving the following as factors involved in developing ME.
Education - read through the threads, do we as a community seem uneducated?
Criminal- do we seem criminal?
Drug Addiction- do we give the impression of being a community of drug or alcohol adicts
Abuse
and then other social conditions such as housing.

The image that she is seeking to portray that this disease is a result of social deprivation and mental health factors is a myth and gives completely the wrong impression as to the nature and cause of this disease. This is misleading and harmful. In fact she is likely researching fatigue caused by depression, not ME. Please reflect on what you see here, do we look like we fit into the patient group she is seeking to portray?

Conscientious, loving parents, suddenly find themselves suspected of and at times accused of harming their child, keeping or making them ill, by people such as Esther Crawley who refuse to accept the scientific evidence regarding ME because they want their beliefs to be true so badly that they ignore anything that may contradict their beliefs and practices. It is devastating.

I hope that you will take the time and trouble to research and understand more and that you will form an opinion and not remain neutral, an informed opinion based on science but also because you have a conscience and do not like to see people mistreated and harmed in the way this community has been.

Thank you and once again I am sorry if you have felt abused by anyone.

Brilliantly said @Molly98
 

AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
Just posted all those slides that we still have to the ME Association Facebook page, hopefully they will come out with a response to this. Am tempted to do so on the AfME page but that would obviously be a complete waste of time.

Also found this on the BRS event site https://eventmobi.com/brs2017/agenda/231871/1181430
Screen Shot 2017-04-29 at 09.30.59.png

Crawley's talk was actually called "Should I just toughen up? How to deal with anti-science.". The poor poppet, causing so much grief to so many patients must be really hard on her.
 

Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
why apologise to this chap - he blocked me for simply retweeting his tweets and now he has the audacity to claim that those be blocked were abusing him or Crawley through his tweets

he needs to now apolgise to me for this statement - pass that on to him from an ME researcher

he quickly took the tweets down most likely because he saw patients and others were spreading truth ie what Crawley was writing

this chap has swallowed the Crawley teaching lesson hook line and sinker - saying he was abused, please him to give examples of the abuse he sufferered yesterday ?

I can not apologise in any way for abuse he may or may not have received because I have no idea what that is, from whom or what he is constituting as abuse, that is why I have asked him to provide details of the abuse he has suffered, however, I am sorry that he feels abused, that is not a pleasant feeling.

I can imagine that if my introduction to the field of ME was a lecture by St Esther, where I had just listened to St Esther portray us as abusive, dangerous militants, coming from a background of social deprivation with a likelihood of having a background of crime, drug addiction, abuse etc with poor education. And I had possibly also heard stories from her about death threats etc. I would be likely panicked to suddenly find a lot of interest in my tweets from the ME community and have a knee jerk protective reaction and perceived myself to be under threat and probably block anyone and everyone.
Not saying this is the case just I can imagine doing it if I had just been fed the same bull. My imagination would be running wild and conjuring up all sorts of terrifying images.

If we have just been portrayed as hostile, dangerous and threatening oh and deranged by someone in a position of influence and authority who supposedly knows her research subjects I think that his reaction was understandable. Not right, but understandable. It just goes to show the damage such misinformation does. He has only heard one side of the story, one that would evoke fear and alarm.