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I just "graduated" from a GET/CBT therapy at the Mayo Clinic. Ask me anything!

Messages
87
Location
Savannah, GA
I know I shouldn't laugh but this did make me chuckle.

Thank you for engaging with this thread. I can imagine it must have been very tiring as you have been subject to quite the interrogation, but you have nevertheless been attentive and not shied away from any line of questioning. This is a very contentious topic around here and I would like to commend everyone on how respectful they have been. Whoever said that patients victimise those who engage with GET?

I think it would be interesting reading for anyone who is considering the Mayo Clinic for treatment of their CFS/ME. Perhaps you could change the title to include the Mayo Clinic so that it is boosted up the rankings on Google? Just a thought.

I knew going into this that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wanted to show some that shying away from exercise shouldn't be the first reaction; it may be possible to do very moderate and light exercise in such a way that wont' damage you. That doesn't go for everyone, though. It's also been good for me to see that while I did benefit, I did come out a lot angrier than when I started. Also, it was good for me to see that the brain fog is still a severe symptom for me.

Changed the header. I agree; I really did a good amount of web searching before I started at mayo but found nothing. I hope I can at least help others.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
I knew going into this that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wanted to show some that shying away from exercise shouldn't be the first reaction; it may be possible to do very moderate and light exercise in such a way that wont' damage you. That doesn't go for everyone, though. It's also been good for me to see that while I did benefit, I did come out a lot angrier than when I started. Also, it was good for me to see that the brain fog is still a severe symptom for me.

Changed the header. I agree; I really did a good amount of web searching before I started at mayo but found nothing. I hope I can at least help others.
Often times when modern medicine believes something they can't face up to their mistakes.
So instead of admitting they are wrong or they can't help they just blame patients :(
Someday we will have the disease mechanism (fingers crossed soon with Ron Davis), then they will just move on, thus "saving face". Unfortunately that leaves many victims in its wake :(
Unfortunately CBT is a very misguided endeavour, they miss the point and "deal" with a symptom while claiming they are fixing the cause since they don't really understand what they are acting upon. Hopefully you can understand and make peace with what happened to you, and this is a pretty good group so hopefully we can help.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
I knew going into this that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wanted to show some that shying away from exercise shouldn't be the first reaction; it may be possible to do very moderate and light exercise in such a way that wont' damage you. That doesn't go for everyone, though. It's also been good for me to see that while I did benefit, I did come out a lot angrier than when I started. Also, it was good for me to see that the brain fog is still a severe symptom for me.

Changed the header. I agree; I really did a good amount of web searching before I started at mayo but found nothing. I hope I can at least help others.

I don't think many 'shy away' from exercise as a first reaction. I am still very confused by your comments on this thread -- you started off with glowing comments and as members added input, you totally changed your tune. I can't get any sense of what you experienced because you have contradicted yourself a fair bit.

Perhaps at this point it would be helpful for you to provide a synopsis -- what helped you, what did not. I don't know why you were even in this program because in another thread you started you stated that
I'm not in any significant pain
So why on earth were you doing a pain rehab program to start with. You said you came out a lot 'angrier' but your initial posts didn't convey this. Could you clarify. Thanks. It would be helpful.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
I knew going into this that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wanted to show some that shying away from exercise shouldn't be the first reaction; it may be possible to do very moderate and light exercise in such a way that wont' damage you. That doesn't go for everyone, though. It's also been good for me to see that while I did benefit, I did come out a lot angrier than when I started. Also, it was good for me to see that the brain fog is still a severe symptom for me.

Changed the header. I agree; I really did a good amount of web searching before I started at mayo but found nothing. I hope I can at least help others.

This is my personal hot button issue. And this is not directed at @Quemist specifically but at what keeps being said over and over.
Some come on here and while they mean well and are careful to qualify their encouragement to those it might benefit it's like this:

The world around us is literally (I want everyone who encourages exercise to think about this a beat) very emphatically saturated in the ethos of not sitting around and wasting ones life but getting out there and seizing the day. This is accomplished by being in top fit condition. I am housebound and I don't have to leave my home even to still be assaulted with what I already am acutely aware of---exercise makes life better, mentally, physically, socially.

I get the mail--fliers advertising a gym membership or yoga classes.
I go to a website looking for info --- all kinds and variations on the theme of 'Just do it'.
I look out my window --- see someone jogging and I know they didn't leave their house without reason and just started running mindlessly--they're jogging cause it's good for them.
The last time I left the house was to go to the Dr. --- sit in waiting room --- read magazines filled with health/exercise advice.

You think that people with ME form some sort of special group that hasn't a clue? That's why many of us suggest rest--because it doesn't come naturally and it's bloody well not easy. Try lying down and doing nothing-- unless you can fall asleep (I can't) it's mind numbingly dull. Exercise can and does prove useful if it can be managed but the BIG issue for me is that people are naturally going to try and do just that. We are not layabouts. We need to be told to rest because no-one else will offer that advice needed for people with ME. Even the experts feel the need to qualify the 'oh yes, you must rest' advice with an immediate follow-up on doing exercise.
 
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TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
I wanted to show some that shying away from exercise shouldn't be the first reaction; it may be possible to do very moderate and light exercise in such a way that wont' damage you.
Shying away from exercise??? No one here shys away from exercise. For some people it is a necessity. They avoid exercise as a very last resort - it is NEVER a first reaction.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
Shying away from exercise??? No one here shys away from exercise. For some people it is a necessity. They avoid exercise as a very last resort - it is NEVER a first reaction.
very true, i have to over do it to survive as do many if not most of us
hence we should all be improving instead of getting worse if GET alternative facts were true
 

IreneF

Senior Member
Messages
1,552
Location
San Francisco
Thanks, @Diwi :)
YES- insurance. BCBS did a giant survey of the cost effectiveness of the program. Since a huge part is "don't go see any more doctors for your symptoms" insurance companies are saving a ton of money on the terapy.
I also still can't wrap my head around the lumped untreatable conditions.
There's this idea that people with MUS go "doctor shopping" until they find a provider who agrees with their self-diagnosis. Or something like that.
 

Mohawk1995

Senior Member
Messages
287
You think that people with ME form some sort of special group that hasn't a clue? That's why many of us suggest rest--because it doesn't come naturally and it's bloody well not easy. Try lying down and doing nothing-- unless you can fall asleep (I can't) it's mind numbingly dull. Exercise can and does prove useful if it can be managed but the BIG issue for me is that people are naturally going to try and do just that. We are not layabouts. We need to be told to rest because no-one else will offer that advice needed for people with ME. Even the experts feel the need to qualify the 'oh yes, you must rest' advice with an immediate follow-up on doing exercise.

Rest is extremely important in my own experience as one who has never suffered with ME as well as in our son's case who has suffered with it. I agree with @Snowdrop that it always seems to be presented as a second rated treatment or lifestyle strategy when in my experience it should be equally important and maybe should be over-emphasized based on the culture we live in.

My own experience as a competitive runner (in the past) was fraught with injury until I learned the importance of purposeful rest. When that was taken into account and I worked to correct any physical dysfunctions, I trained for several years without injury for the only time in my athletic career. My experience as a Physical Therapist also showed me the value of rest leading me to say "Stress (the correct dosage and type of activity) with Rest is Best". In ME or any other systemic disorder, it has to be even more purposeful in my opinion.

In our son's experience he was instructed by Dr Lerner to do absolutely no exercise or exertional activity during his 12 week treatment. I have to admit the "athlete" and "Therapist" within me struggled with this, but we followed his advice. Our son gained a significant amount of weight during that time period and it took him over a year to lose it, but he did have a successful treatment outcome which is most important. Whether knowingly or not, Dr Lerner's advice now makes sense in that the treatment itself was probably stressful enough to the body without adding more stress by trying to exercise or exert. I am confident it was the total treatment package that "shut the switch off" for our son and allowed him then to "rehabilitate" himself over the next 2-3 years. Once the switch was "off", he did benefit from a correctly applied combination of CBT and GET that was individualized to him (not a generic form applied blindly as appears to be the case at Mayo and in the UK).

Rest supplies what is needed for recovery, allows the body/Nervous system to re-charge and prepares the body to make improvement. It also provides emotional and spiritual margin in my opinion which is an extremely important matter in the case of chronic disease. It is very unfortunate that so few people hold it to be of such extreme value. This is particularly true for those who say "if you believe it, you can achieve it" and our "more is better" culture that is so pervasive in the US. Those mindsets are counter-productive in the long term and in particular it seems with ME.
 

Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
Here is my opinion on this programs: Do Pacing and Light exercise are beneficial?
Pacing: Yes.
Exercise: Yes IF DONE UNDER Anaerobic threshold or you will crash. no matter how long you do it, the AT does not improve (At least in my case).

But here is my issue, it is not a cure, nor is it realistic. It will make you better but not good enough to go back to work permanently. I have being doing this for 10 years.

I have never stopped "exercising" except when I have relapsed myself due to exercise about 3 times, and I have relapsed after bad infections or grab something or overdo because of unpreventable things (kid get sick,..).

So it is not realistic, because is not like you can quit your job (they say this is a cure so they do not give you disability $$) and when you get home, your toddler goes into the street, you run after her and there goes 2 years that will take you pacing and "build up exercise" to go back to a "functional recovery".

So if they say sure go home and Pace and you don't have to cook, or take care of nobody but yourself so you can put time aside (so you can monitor you are not overdoing the exercise) because as long as you have house duties, you never know if the crash is coming from what.

And I am not talking about being crazy type A keep house clean. Have this people ever had kids? You do not get to say to the kids, hey stop having school things, or living so I can recover. So we will have to choose and crash due to being a parent, a wife, a person... To the most basic levels. So it is not realistic nor sustainable. We need a real solution.
 

Mohawk1995

Senior Member
Messages
287
I knew going into this that it was going to be a controversial thread.

Yes indeed controversial, but it has created a great deal of conversation and thoughts which are a good thing. I agree with @Kina that it would be good to know more detail as to specifically what you did and what you felt worked or did not work. What it was that made you angry and perhaps how could some of the approach that helped have been delivered in a different manner to avoid the negative responses. I would still say "good on you" for posting and do not worry about being perfect in your posts (I certainly have not been).
 

Mohawk1995

Senior Member
Messages
287
These anecdotes are unfortunately contradicted by a variety of CBT and GET trials. They show that there is no objective benefit.

I agree that had our son participated in CBT and GET as it was delivered in the trials you reference, he would have clearly failed. In fact, he did fail to improve with basically the same approach performed prior to his 12 week treatment.
Because his results are contradicted by trials that were not set up in the exact same fashion, it does not mean that they are not true. The "CBT and GET" (I am just calling it that because it was both an emotional and physical progression) he performed was a very very slow progression taking over 3 years to complete with a mixture of just normal everyday activity and gradually (Graded) increasing to exercise over those 36 months. In addition, the "CBT" he received was provided by a trained counselor who had experienced a severe EBV infection as a child and focused on support and coping strategies. He also was aligned faith wise with my son so was able to address spiritual issues as well.

In my thinking it is not that CBT or GET was delivered in the trials you reference, it is that it was delivered in the manner it was that is the problem. Even good treatments applied incorrectly or inappropriately can be harmful.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
In my thinking it is not that CBT or GET was delivered in the trials you reference, it is that it was delivered in the manner it was that is the problem. Even good treatments applied incorrectly or inappropriately can be harmful.
In regards to activity, CBT and GET have been delivered in various ways by the different trials. The PACE version, for example, was very responsive to symptoms, to the extent that it was not much different from pacing. But overall, the trials do demonstrate that programs aimed at slowly increasing activity levels are completely ineffective.

It's quite likely that your son would have improved after his real treatment even without such such a program. This is what happens in trials with control arms. Some GET patients improve, but so do some controls. They demonstrate that the treatment is not the reason that some improve.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
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Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
there is a lack of evidence to show that the lower intensity graded exercise will have any effect on physical fitness.
Is there evidence of null results or do you mean there just isn't any research on this topic? Interesting to know for stopGET stuff.

t, I did come out a lot angrier than when I started
This is a shame. I wonder if this is common? I took part in one of these trials but I was in the sham CBT like control group. I actually found it helpful talking to other pwme, but that was possibly related to not having the therapy! I can definitely imagine feeling angrier or more negative. It might relate to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory By trying to stop you having negative thoughts have they simply prompted you towards more negative thinking?!

We need to be told to rest because no-one else will offer that advice needed for people with ME
Yes. Almost everyone initially goes into destructive boom and bust cycles until they are told to rest.

IF DONE UNDER Anaerobic threshold or you will crash
I know the aerobic threshold matters, but I can trigger a crash from over doing it under this threshold.

Realistic and sustainable. Exactly what any true or real solution must be
In a study when they did measure actual activity during GET, participants didn't increase their overall activity. It is begging Peter to pay Paul. No additional energy is created because they haven't done anything to treat the underlying cause of fatigue/PEM/weakness etc.

programs aimed at slowly increasing activity levels are completely ineffective.
They demonstrate that the treatment is not the reason that some improve.

This is really key. Thankfully many of us do improve over time. Some people will happen to do GET when they are improving anyway. If your health improves you can do more. In this scenario GET may help slightly with scaffolding the increase but there's no evidence of this. In my opinion, if GET has any use at all, it would only be to the extent that it holds you back from crazy over activity and not at all from encouraging you to actually do more. Pacing does this more effectively and is the patient activity management of choice.
 

Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
Yes indeed controversial, but it has created a great deal of conversation and thoughts which are a good thing. I agree with @Kina that it would be good to know more detail as to specifically what you did and what you felt worked or did not work. What it was that made you angry and perhaps how could some of the approach that helped have been delivered in a different manner to avoid the negative responses. I would still say "good on you" for posting and do not worry about being perfect in your posts (I certainly have not been).
I agree. Good, open, honest debate between people having different views can often be a bit difficult, but if done with sincere intent to take things forward, can be highly rewarding all round. Provided there are no hidden agendas, deceit, oblique manipulations, sh*t stirring, etc.