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Nguyen et al/NCNED: Calcium mobilisation in NK cells from CFS/ME patients is associated with...

alicec

Senior Member
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Australia
This is a sentence from the second link that you posted above @@AndyPR and was wondering if it is the same as the original article or something different? Am still trying to sort out of the role of having the Anti CA+ autoantibody and whether it relates to these articles?

This is just an inaccurate attempt by a reporter to describe what TRPM3 receptors are/do, in the course of reporting about the Nguyen et al study that is the subject of this thread.

TRPM3 ion channels are just one of many different types of calcium ion channel which regulate the flow of calcium ions into cells. They don't control intercellular signalling as this quote implies.

The consequence of this calcium influx for the cell depends on what other systems any particular ion channel is linked to. This accounts for the different effects of the different ion channels, even though they all regulate calcium influx into cells.

Having an autoantibody for one of the ion-channel proteins would affect the function of that ion channel, not all ion channels.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
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16,171
TRPM3 ion channels are just one of many different types of calcium ion channel which regulate the flow of calcium ions into cells. They don't control intercellular signalling as this quote implies.

@alicec Thank you for explaining this further and I wish I could understand it all better! So "TRMP3" is a type of calcium ion channel that regulates the flow of CA+ ions into the cells? If I have an autoantibody to the N-Type CA+ Channel, would these be comparable (meaning N-type is one type and TRMP3 is simply another type)?

The consequence of this calcium influx for the cell depends on what other systems any particular ion channel is linked to. This accounts for the different effects of the different ion channels, even though they all regulate calcium influx into cells.

How would someone know which systems are linked to a particular ion channel (or autoantibody) or is this unknown at this time?

Having an autoantibody for one of the ion-channel proteins would affect the function of that ion channel, not all ion channels.

That makes sense to me and I know (in my case) that I have the Auto-Ab to the N-type but not to the P/Q type or L-type. But I don't know to what percent I am affected by just having one of them since I have so many of the muscle symptoms that connect to LEMS (which relates to these Auto-Abs) but my EMG was negative for LEMS. I wish I could understand this all better and decode all these terms in a way that makes sense.
 

alicec

Senior Member
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Location
Australia
So "TRMP3" is a type of calcium ion channel that regulates the flow of CA+ ions into the cells? If I have an autoantibody to the N-Type CA+ Channel, would these be comparable (meaning N-type is one type and TRMP3 is simply another type)?

N-type channels and TRPM3 are both ion channel proteins that allow calcium into the cell, though they function very differently.

N-type channels are called voltage gated because the protein is stimulated to change shape and create an opening to allow calcium ions through in response to a change in voltage across the cell membrane.

Most of the well studied calcium channel proteins (and there are a number of different types) are voltage gated. These are the type of channels that are active in the heart and in neurons and can mediate things like muscle contraction and release of neurotransmitters.

TRPM3 proteins are ligand gated, ie the shape change that opens the channel is stimulated by binding of a small molecule (the ligand), rather than by electrical changes in the cell membrane.

Many of the TRP family of molecules are sensory receptors with TRPM3 being sensitive to heat. It is also linked to insulin release. Less is known about them than the voltage gated type.

How would someone know which systems are linked to a particular ion channel (or autoantibody) or is this unknown at this time?

Scientists devise incredibly complicated experiments to work this out and trust me you don't want to go delving into the detail. It is bewilderingly complex.

You don't need to know this detail, you just need to know that the cell has complex mechanisms for distinguishing between the different types of calcium channels and responding accordingly.

As for working out the clinical effects of a calcium channel autoantibody, well this is where you need a good physician.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
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16,171
Wow, @alicec Thank you so much for explaining all of that and I wish I could trade brains w/you a day LOL! So, the N-type CA+ Channels are voltage gated and the TRMP3 CA+ Channels are ligand gated and both could have auto-antibodies directed against them? Is that correct?

As far as the clinical effects, I have seen three Neuromuscular Docs who literally have no clue. One told me that I was the first patient in their entire career to have the N-type CA+ Auto-Ab. Another was done once he ruled out LEMS, and the third was too horrible to even mention but fell in the psychosomatic camp.

My main doctor is phenomenal but not a Neuro. He is trying to reduce all of my Auto-Abs (the CA+ just one of them) w/IVIG and hopefully soon RTX. My response to IVIG has exceeded both of our expectations. I think the world expert on these Abs is probably Angela Vincent in the UK but I am in the US and my attempts at finding a way to contact her have failed and I have given up on this route. Instead we are trying to make contact w/another doc (who is probably the U.S. expert) at UT Southwestern.

But everything points to IVIG and RTX, regardless if we understand exactly what each of my autoantibodies do. The Neuro who ordered the original test (which was sent to Mayo) said that everything would come back negative. He was shocked when two came back positive and didn't know what to do IMO so it was easier to label it all as psychosomatic. But I am pretty certain this Auto-Ab correlates with my muscle weakness and that calcium channelopathies (I hope this is the right term) are going to end up playing a big role in ME/CFS and many other related illnesses even though I lack the knowledge to explain how.
 
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Gingergrrl

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@Gingergrrl is this the Angela Vincent that you refer to? If so there is an e-mail address for her just under her profile picture https://www.ndcn.ox.ac.uk/team/angela-vincent. Apologies if this is something you've found before.

Thank you @AndyPR and yes, this is the same Dr. Vincent. I found that page many months ago but didn't actually send her an e-mail b/c I assumed that she must receive so many random e-mails from patients around the world that mine would just get buried in a pile. I've e-mailed other doctors this way and 99% of the time do not get a reply unless I have some other connection.

So I tried to reach her another way but it also ended up not working out. So maybe I really should just send her an e-mail and have nothing to lose! I'd absolutely love to send a blood sample to her lab in the UK for autoantibody testing (and now that I've sent blood to Germany/Cell Trend, I know how to do it) but I'd need some kind of instructions from her lab re: how much blood to send, which color tubes, how to pay the fee, etc. What she does is so specialized (auto-antibody mediated ion channelopathies) but it is exactly what I have and I think her insight would be invaluable if she consults w/patients from the US.
 

undcvr

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NYC
Is there a thread itself where pple are already on calcium channel blockers and how they are responding to it?
 

M Paine

Senior Member
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341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
TRPM3 proteins are ligand gated, ie the shape change that opens the channel is stimulated by binding of a small molecule (the ligand), rather than by electrical changes in the cell membrane.

Do you have a source for TRPM3 being ligand gated? That suprised me, as my understanding is that TRPM3 proteins are constitutively activated
 

alicec

Senior Member
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Location
Australia
Do you have a source for TRPM3 being ligand gated?

I based the statement on several papers such as this one showing that binding of various small molecules opens the channel.

I don't know that all of them are ligand gated - perhaps my statement was too broad.
 
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Jill

Senior Member
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209
Location
Auckland, NZ
I'm not science smart, so maybe somebody can help me with this question I have. My calcium levels are always very high on my blood/lab work. Could this have something to do with it?
I just saw this ! Hey you may have hyperparathroidism which is completely curable. Please look into this. My motherinlaw has just been diagnosed and symptoms are like ME. Your gp needs to test parathyroid hormone but it isn't always elevated . You need a nuclear scan of the parathyroid glands.
Elevated blood calcium should have been bloody followed up! It's the stand out for hyperparathyroidism
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
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1,853
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Reduced NK Cell activity is associated with CFS/ME. NK Cells normally differ from NKT cells in that they don't express TCR or CD3 receptors, amongst other things. They usually express CD16 and CD56.

NK cells are grouped into two main subsets, depending on the cell surface density of CD56 and CD16 expression. 90% of circulating NK cells are CD56dim CD16bright. The rest being CD56bright CD16neg/dim.

TRPM3 (Transient receptor potential melastatin 3) encodes for a cation-selective channel, which forms part of calcium signalling and homeostasis. A previous study identified single nucleotide polymorphisms in TRPM3 genes as correlating to illness in CFS/ME.(Novel identification and characterisation of Transient receptor potential melastatin 3 ion channels on Natural Killer cells and B lymphocytes: effects on cell signalling in Chronic fatigue syndrome/Myalgic encephalomyelitis patients)

This study used immunofluorescence to measure the expression of TRPM3, CD56, CD16 and a couple more receptors. They confirmed that TRPM3 expression is abnormal (low) in the less abundant subgroup of NK cells in CFS patients compared with controls. Calcium channel activity was measured, and was normal, until the cells were stimulated with PregS. That sort of suggests that it's not until these cells are 'activated', that the deficient calcium channel activity likely associated with TRPM3 expression is measurable.

To further complicate matters, the more abundant subgroup of NK cells did express TRPM3 in a normal range, and increased expression when activated. This increase was not associated with an increase in calcium channel activity.

I can't read the full paper, it's behind a pay-wall. Would really like to read the discussion if someone has access.
I was following various links related to cell death in intestinal ischemia-induced necroptosis (newly discovered form of programmed cell death that combines the features of both apoptosis and necrosis and has been implicated in the development of a range of inflammatory diseases) which lead to this thread from a calcium overload connection after skirting MS too.

This hasn't helped with what I was looking into but I gather from a quick look at this topic that similar deficiencies of NK cells in ME/CFS occurs in MS too and saw it mentioned somewhere that some in the medical field suggest ME/CFS to be "Atypical MS" so thought I would mention that daclizumab which targets CD56 bright and is in clinical trials for MS might be of similar benefit in ME/CFS too.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904459/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26381393
 
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If you want to have more background about the TRPM3 channel you should read the following thesis:
file:///D:/Med/uk_bl_ethos_485635.pdf
One of the key consequences of the reduced Ca++ flux in TRPM3 channel is the activation of linked Na+ channel in the nervous sysem. The activation of the linked Na+ channel is increased pain (both nociceptive and neuropathic).
 

M Paine

Senior Member
Messages
341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Thanks @IanHHH, do you think you could re-share the file? That link is only viewable from your computer. You will need to use a file sharing service like Dropbox, Google Docs, or similar to share the file online.