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OAT, PLEASE INTERPET

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I've increased magnesium from 100 mg to 400 within the last week and a half. Potassium from 750 to 1500. I've been having gut pain. No diarrhea but softening of stool. Along with the gut pain there's been brain fog. I'm amazed at this gut/brain connection and how interconnected it is. Could this have something to do with the vagus nerve?

I think I'll hold for a week and see if it settles down.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I'm feeling really, really crappy. Gut pain, diarrhea, no appetite. My brain is toast. How could such a small thing like magnesium cause such an adverse reaction?

I've quit taking it and potassium until I return to baseline.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I'm finally coming out of my hole. I noticed it's been 2 weeks! In hindsight I think I was experiencing withdrawal symptoms from my Valium taper. It really affects my Vagus nerve especially around my abdomen and neck. I feel a lot better with the exception of bad headaches. I guess I need to slow down my taper. At this rate it'll be a year before I'm done. Sigh.

I've been going over past posts and I think I need to resign myself to the fact that, at this point, I'm incapable of understanding the intricacies of the methylation cycle. I think all I need to understand is the importance of active B2 to drive my AKG and MTHFR (with B3), and B6 for SHMTI. Of course B12 is vital for the folate cycle.

Many thanks to @alicec for interpreting my OAT, GI test, and helping me understand (as much as I was able ) the methylation cycle. Alicec, I'm taking Pure Encapsulation B-complex. It has 5 mg riboflavin and B6 as perydoxine (10 mg). Are these active forms? What dosage of B2 and B6 have you found effective for you?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
It has 5 mg riboflavin and B6 as perydoxine (10 mg). Are these active forms? What dosage of B2 and B6 have you found effective for you?

The active form of B2 available as a supplement is FMN (flavin mononucleotide), aka R5P (riboflavin 5 phosphate). In the body this is further converted into FAD (flavin adenine dinucleotide). The latter form is not available as a supplement.

Active B6 is P5P (pyridoxal 5 phosphate).

I have tried many forms of both vitamins. Currently I am using the Source Naturals coenzymated B2 (FMN) 25 mg sublingual , and coenzymated B6 (P5P) 25 mg sublingual. I place between the upper gum and cheek rather than under the tongue. They dissolve more slowly this way and there is better absorption.

I have noticed that these forms are far more potent than anything else I have tried. I take one of each daily, cut in quarters and spread out through the day.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Thanks. After I posted I noticed at the bottom of the Pure Encapsulatation label that it contains R5P- 10 mg and P5P-10 mg. I'll switch to FMN when I'm out.

They come in capsules. Do you think I could pour the contents out and divide it throughout the day without it losing its potency?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Do you think I could pour the contents out and divide it throughout the day without it losing its potency?

That should be ok if you protect from light. I think the difference in potency I noticed comes from the sublingual route as opposed to swallowing, where there is variable processing in the gut.

You could try sublingual with the powder from the capsules by placing between lower gum and lip (I think it would be too difficult to get powder into upper gum position). The powder should just slowly dissolve and be absorbed.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
That should be ok if you protect from light. I think the difference in potency I noticed comes from the sublingual route as opposed to swallowing, where there is variable processing in the gut.

How well oral pills are absorbed does bring about a pretty big variable. We're all so different as far as our digestion/absorption goes. It seems when absorption is working good youre still only getting 1-2%? This makes sublinguals a no brainier or better yet oils.

I suppose when there are no other options but to take them orally, one would have to take a symptom based approach.

You could try sublingual with the powder from the capsules by placing between lower gum and lip (I think it would be too difficult to get powder into upper gum position). The powder should just slowly dissolve and be absorbed.

I tried the powder sublingually and it was gross. Very bitter.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
It seems when absorption is working good youre still only getting 1-2%?

For many things it would be much better than that, depends entirely on the substance.

Active B2 and B6 are a special case because of the processing of the phosphate group and B12 even more special because of the complexities of intrinsic factor.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Active B2 and B6 are a special case because of the processing of the phosphate group and B12 even more special because of the complexities of intrinsic factor.

Could you please clarify? B2 and B6 have phosphate groups attached to them? Does this cause lower availablity? If your gut is compromised (intristic factor) then B12 would not be absorbed?

I should have done more research before buying Pure Encapsulation B-complex. You say you take FMN and P5P sublingually. In what form do you take your other Bs?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
B2 and B6 have phosphate groups attached to them

The active forms do (hence the names riboflavin 5 phosphate, pyridoxal 5 phosphate).

In the gut, the phosphate gut is clipped off so the vitamin can cross cell membranes and enter cells. Once in the cell the phosphate group is put back on again.

Some of the active vitamin is also absorbed directly, by a different mechanism. For any individual, the usefulness of swallowed active B2 and B6 depends on how much of this latter mechanism is operating as well as the effectiveness of the enzymes in the first mechanism which remove and replace phosphate groups.

This is the variability I was meaning - independent of other digestive processes. The sublingual route bypasses this variability.

B12 in foods and swallowed supplements requires intrinsic factor (IF) produced in the stomach for absorption. Problems with production of IF, such as in pernicious anaemia, result in B12 deficiency, even if there are adequate dietary sources.

Even under normal circumstances, production of IF is limited and thus so is absorption of B12 in the gut.

There is some controversy about absorption of B12 via the sublingual route. There have been a couple of studies which suggest that it is not really absorbed across mucous membranes but rather is dissolved very slowly and absorbed in the gut via the normal IF route. The slow dissolution makes absorption more efficient than a single bolus dose into the gut as would happen if swallowed.

Actually I think there is far too little research to know what is really happening, plus there are a lot of other unknowns in B12 uptake and processing.

Very slow dissolution of sublingual B12 does seem to give better results but even so only a small proportion is absorbed - perhaps 5-10%.

Studies with the topical route show about 80% absorption.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Very slow dissolution of sublingual B12 does seem to give better results but even so only a small proportion is absorbed - perhaps 5-10%.

This is pretty disappointing. Do you use B12 oils? How do you get your other B complexes?

From what I am able to understand FNM is the way to go. It seems to be the direct precursor to FAD? Some who have had limited results with other kinds of B2s felt an immediate effect from it. I can't remember how the thyroid fits into this. My notes are so disorganized I can't seem to find what I'm looking for.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Do you use B12 oils? How do you get your other B complexes?

I use the methylB12 oil plus sublingual adenosylB12 (there's a bit too much ado in the oil product for me at the moment), sublingual FMN and P5P, oral methylfolate, pantothenic acid, allithiamine, biotin and niacinamide.
 
Last edited:

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
It's not too hard to do B12 injections yourself. I do very high doses of hydroxoB12 twice per week, via intramuscular injection.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
It's not too hard to do B12 injections yourself. I do very high doses of hydroxoB12 twice per week, via intramuscular injection.
My husband taught me how to do the HyB12 IM injections in him. It was very useful when he recently had to take 2x penicilin injections daily for a week.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
It's not too hard to do B12 injections yourself. I do very high doses of hydroxoB12 twice per week, via intramuscular injection.

I heard you need to be careful to protect it from light? There's another thing I don't understand. Some people use hydroxoB12, others methylB12 and andenosylB12. Is this a matter of preference? Do some people react badly to methyl i.e. Over methylation?
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
My husband taught me how to do the HyB12 IM injections in him. It was very useful when he recently had to take 2x penicilin injections daily for a week.

How does B12 fight infection? I read on one of the B threads that it may actually cause inflammation? How does this happen? I am such a worry wart.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
How does B12 fight infection? I read on one of the B threads that it may actually cause inflammation? How does this happen? I am such a worry wart.
For my husband B2 and B6 will mess up with his immune system. Some studies about B vits interfering with microbiota activity have been referred here. We never had immune problems due to B12 supplememtation though. Actually it made a toe nail fungus disappear for me.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I have been feeling ramped up, heart pounding, trouble getting to sleep. I'm taking 1/4 MeCb, folate, and AdoClb. 1/2 Pure Encapsulation B complex (taken in 2 doses).

@caledonia mentioned B12 can cause adrenaline surges tho I don't know how this works. I wonder if those who are tapering/withdrawing from benzos and are prone to cortisol surges might be more sensitive to B12?

I haven't started taking LCF. Could this be a contributing factor?
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
For my husband B2 and B6 will mess up with his immune system. Some studies about B vits interfering with microbiota activity have been referred here. We never had immune problems due to B12 supplememtation though. Actually it made a toe nail fungus disap

This is a good example of how differently we react. For some B12 promotes inflammation (acne), and others, like yourself, it strengthens your immune system. In your link it says excessive B12 causes p.acne to produce porphyrins which promotes inflammation. So I suppose the solution would be to supplement with no more than your body is able to utilize hence "start low and go slow."