• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Professor Ron Davis's response to Naviaux study, including Q and A with Dr Naviaux

Starlight

Senior Member
Messages
152
@Rose49 I am staggered to see you here so generously engaging with the community. I am filled with profound thanks to you and Ron. I care for my daughter who has been ill with this illness for 33 years now, she's 37 now. She went from ill to wheelchair bound to completely bed bound and desperately ill for most of the past 15 years. Right now she can use the internet a bit and come downstairs sometimes on a stairlift to lay on that couch. That small bit is an immense joy to us both after it being missing from her life for so long. I also have severe ME and am completely housebound, just managing to keep us both going by cooking etc is too much sometimes and I end up unable to get out of bed too.
Your generosity and Ron's hard work have touched our lives so deeply and given us so much hope I just want to thank you so sincerely. We try to support you financially whenever we can and pray for you both and Whitney.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I would like to express my appreciation of how the researchers, and @Rose49 have responded to our interest and questions, and kept us in the loop. In medical science this is invaluable to patients, though I do expect to see this only after publication, as there are still lots of hoops the system makes people jump through.

This is indeed science not religion. The scientific process is the best thing I know of to uncover knowledge in the objective world. Evidence, reasoning, and questions, questions, questions, are vital to getting ever closer to answers, and it needs to be open, at least after publication.

I am happy that the data is made available for other researchers. This can make a big difference.

Now I do expect surprises. Maybe big ones. I also expect hypothesis modification, new hypotheses, and abandoning of hypotheses, as data accumulates and things are tested. These are all part of science. Is this research perfect? No, research never is. Its just darn good, encouraging, and producing interesting results.

We have seen the dark side of medical research elsewhere. Distort evidence; make hyperbolic claims; play a political game of rhetoric rather than sound scientific reasoning; blame the patients; use technical definitions that are rarely defined and then use over and over (like recovery redefined to include serious disability), and to joke about patients at conferences and seminars while claiming to patients they support them. This dark side of medicine looks far more like a cult, and resembles the cult of Freud that distorted psychiatric research for nearly a century, even down to charismatic leaders.

When I look back at the history of what I and others have called psychobabble, one things stands out. Advancing technology ends psychogenic claims, like for diabetes, cancer, heart disease, immune disorders, genetic disorders, and even infectious diseases. People who advance the technology often create the situations where change can happen. Its a bit like the old adage "We railroad when its time to railroad", only its time when someone puts in the work and creates the opportunity.

Its really refreshing to see scientists doing science and communicating with patients. We have had a long list of scientists who have done good work, but sometimes we stare at the dark side so long that it seems almost omnipresent.

Thank you, everyone, who have been a part of this.
 
Last edited:

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
I asked Bob Naviaux to respond to this. Here is his response. I hope it clears things up!
Hi Ron and Janet,
Janet told me about your keen commentary on our paper and told me about what people were calling a “disagreement” between us. I don’t see any disagreement. I’ve added the point to our Q&A. Please let me know if this “agreement” is too controversial for the CFS community at the present time.
Q7. How would you respond to Dr. Ronald Davis’s recent statement: “"What is important to note is that in the absence of evidence of an active infection, it is plausible that the long-term antimicrobial treatments often used for ME/CFS patients are doing more harm than good."

I am in complete agreement.Many antibiotics like tetracyclines, erythromycin, and the fluoroquinolones (eg, Cipro), and antivirals like acyclovir, fialuridine, AZT, and ddC also inhibit mitochondrial functions when used chronically (usually for more than about 3 weeks).Because mitochondria are descendants of free-living bacteria, their machinery for protein synthesis and DNA replication are susceptible to many antibiotics, and for reasons unique to mitochondrial DNA synthesis, they are also sensitive to antivirals.Chronic use of these drugs can do more harm than good if there is no longer good evidence for an active infection.When mitochondrial functions are critically impacted by long-term use of certain antibiotics, a ripple effect in metabolism and gene expression is produced that can further impair energy production by mitochondria, converting an active cell danger response that occurs during active infection to a hypometabolic survival response.

In the field of mitochondrial medicine we are particularly sensitive to these issues of iatrogenic toxicity because some of the drugs that inhibit mitochondrial functions are very commonly used in patients without mitochondrial disease.For example, statins, valproate, and metformin can each produce problems in patients with pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction.


Bob

Robert K. Naviaux, MD, PhD
Professor of Genetics
Biochemical Genetics and Metabolism
Departments of Medicine, Pediatrics, and Pathology
Co-director, The Mitochondrial and Metabolic Disease Center (MMDC)
UCSD School of Medicine

Thanks so much Dr Navaiux, Ron and Janet for taking the time to respond to our questions very much appreciated.

Regarding antibiotic use, could longterm, repeated exposure to low levels of antibiotics via meat from animals fed ABX be a factor? So even for someone who hasnt had loads of ABX for infections, may they still have had a significant exposure over time via this route affecting their mitos.

Similarly pesticides.

My husband and I both have ME for 36 years, triggered by viral infections.

Due to various test results and liver genetic testing our doctor guessed we weren't good at detoxing pesticides so we had a fat biopsy test to see if this was the case.

In my case i was found to have 4.5 times the upper supposed "safe"! level of the organochlorine pesticide lindane which is a decidedly nasty substance, along with other chemicals, including another chemical which was used along with lindane for wood preservation.

I know the doctor said he found many people with ME and allergies tended to have high levels of pesticides.

So my question, could various pesticide residues also effect mito function and be a factor in many people with ME?
 
Last edited:

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
Having interviewed Ron Davis.....He is a very nice person, and incredibly humble. He has one motive, which is to do good science, find how this disease works and cure it.

How kind and humble he is shone through in bucket loads in his talk at the IiME conference. I was so impressed with the way he explained such complicated science and with his personality, it was very movng, strange thing to say about a lecture on metabolomics but it was!
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
Metabolomics should be rolled out fairly soon for patients. I am working on this with the person involved-particulary the UK side of things. @Rose49 is well informed of all this.

This interests me (for obvious reasons). Clearly there are a lot of questions apropos type of sample, time delay between sampling and arriving at Stanford/OMF, type of carrier etc etc. But... *if* there was an issue which could be overcome by having a personal courier from the Uk who could take samples from a central collection point in person to the US then my other half has volunteered himself.. fwiw.
We are working on that specifically and should have it sorted-don't worry :)

Will keep you updated on this and there will most likely be a forum announcement. But its not ready just yet.


B


Thanks ..good to know. Looking forward to taking part.
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
I used tetracycline for a couple years for acne. I wonder about the impact of using tetracycline so long on my developing ME/CFS. Maybe I have been stuck in a hypometabolic survival response since then due to the tetracycline use?
Fwiw I was in a fairly good (best non pregnancy) remission at about 75% of normal when I too was Rx oxytetracycline for acne 13 years into my illness in 1983. Within a few months I had crashed very badly indeed.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,743
Location
South East England, UK
Due to various test results and liver genetic testing our doctor guessed we weren't good at detoxing pesticides so we had a fat biopsy test to see if this was the case.

In my case i was found to have 4.5 times the upper supposed "safe"! level of the organochlorine pesticide lindane which is a decidedly nasty substance, along with other chemicals, including another chemical which was used along with lindane for wood preservation.

I had lindane show up too in the tests Dr Myhill ordered for me from Acumen as well as my immune system reacting to mercury and nickel. If I remember correctly lindane was used to spray apples with up to the 1980s and I know I used to drink a lot of apple juice in those days and often wondered if it came from that. Either way I am definitely a poor detoxifier. The biochemist from Acumen definitely believes these substances block the mitochondria from functioning properly. I have managed to have some improvement in energy by going gluten and dairy free but still pick up viruses ridiculously frequently which always put me back in a real ME/CFS state.

At times this year I have felt almost normal but it never lasts because along will come yet another virus

Pam
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,479
Location
UK
Thanks so much Dr Navaiux, Ron and Janet for taking the time to respond to our questions very much appreciated.

Regarding antibiotic use, could longterm, repeated exposure to low levels of antibiotics via meat from animals fed ABX be a factor? So even for someone who hasnt had loads of ABX for infections, may they still have had a significant exposure over time via this route affecting their mitos.

Similarly pesticides.

My husband and I both have ME for 36 years, triggered by viral infections.

Due to various test results and liver genetic testing our doctor guessed we weren't good at detoxing pesticides so we had a fat biopsy test to see if this was the case.

In my case i was found to have 4.5 times the upper supposed "safe"! level of the organochlorine pesticide lindane which is a decidedly nasty substance, along with other chemicals, including another chemical which was used along with lindane for wood preservation.

I know the doctor said he found many people with ME and allergies tended to have high levels of pesticides.

So my question, could various pesticide residues also effect mito function and be a factor in many people with ME?

I became severely ill after I moved into a brand new timber home that had been treated with lindane, pentachlorophenol, dieldrin and an organophosphate. Some of my new neighbours (the houses had just been built) in the surrounding properties also became ill. One was admitted to a nursing home with a diagnosis of ME, as was I, one became too ill to work with an immune disease and another young man died with an unexplained immune condition. We were all in our 30s. I discovered shortly after that the treatment was removed from the market as so many had become ill throughout the UK. The London Hazards Centre wrote a book on it.

Similarly, the organophosphate sheep dip farmers in the county developed ME. They joined the ME group of which I was chairperson and I witnessed how disgracefully they were treated. Enter Mark Purdey...........a number of you know the story.

Does this paper also explain why septrin aka bactrim caused ME in so many people that the company that manufactured the antibiotic admitted liability and paid compensation? As I recall, it was removed from the UK market, rebranded bactrim and sold in the US.
 

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
Fwiw I was in a fairly good (best non pregnancy) remission at about 75% of normal when I too was Rx oxytetracycline for acne 13 years into my illness in 1983. Within a few months I had crashed very badly indeed.

Yep, I too was on oxytetracyline for some time for acne.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,479
Location
UK
And I forgot to mention that I was prescribed Septrin for many years for bronchiectasis. Then there was the OCs.................sooo are we saying it is a two.......or more-hit scenario?

A friend of mine likens me to a canary they put down the mine to test for toxic gas. If I collapse, then everyone else knows to leave. Are we poor detoxifiers who cannot tolerate 20-21st centrury environments?

Many years ago, Dr CS wrote that 16 % of us had Gilbert's syndrome which is significantly higher than the general population. Does this mean that we can't detoxify adequately and could it be relevant?
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
Hi @msf

Many of us have had elevated viral titres, some elevated elispot's etc and have no such luck with extensive antivirals or abx. And to the contrary have been made worse. Not just on the basis of a 'hunch' but specific, targeted therapy based on lab results.

I think Prof. Davis is clearly aware of the reasons people take antimicrobials. Not sure where you are getting the idea that he isn't aware from...



B

Not sure about the abx and from what I read on PR, if you list every individual who took Valcyte for enough time, the number of whose who improved isn't that bad, on the contrary.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
thanks for your reply... I have related it to the dryness, major dry eyes and mouth which I experience 24/7... Hope the other eye stays free of fraying!

@Starfive and others who posted about retinal detachment. Another documented cause is Fluoroquinolone antibiotics which can cause retinal detachment but many people do not know this. It may not pertain to your situation but wanted to mention it just in case. All my medical charts say "No FQ antibiotics" including at my eye doctor so I am never given an FQ eye drop.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
It would be pretty ironic though if a couple of accusations put off someone like Davis

I don't think it is a question of comments putting him off from doing the research and he will do this research no matter what as long as humanly possible. But I think if he and/or Dr. Naviaux read the negative comments on PR, they may wonder if it is worth it for them to spend their limited time and effort responding to our questions. The research will continue either way but having direct access to them could stop if people are not respectful and grateful.
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
Not sure about the abx and from what I read on PR, if you list every individual who took Valcyte for enough time, the number of whose who improved isn't that bad, on the contrary.

Hi @Theodore

Sure, people have improved, both on abx or av's. Just like some people have benefitted from methylation support. Or dietary changes. Etc.

But the majority have not, and many have been made worse. Otherwise we would not have a 'thriving' (dark?!) forum. I do not believe abx and av's are getting to the root issue for those of us with ME/CFS.

The question being why most people do not benefit, or are not cured. We need to see if there is a common finding between patients that helps us understand the illness.

Naviaux's paper strongly points us in that direction, with a potential biomarker and commonality that we may all share.


B
 

JAH

Senior Member
Messages
497
Location
Northern California
I also had a retinal hole some 7 years ago @Starfive which though a different condition, involves the vitreous inside the eye pulling on the retina. Some people get detached retinas due to the shape of their eye ball apparently - they are short sighted, but this is not so for me.

Apparently there are a couple of other conditions that have higher incidence of retinal detachment and one of them is Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, and there are quite a few people with ME who also have EDS. I don't think I do have this but I do have hypermobility (severe hypermobility is one of the key features of EDS).

Another vulnerability for retinal detachment is Lattice Degeneration which is a kind of fraying on the edges of the retina and about 10% of the population have that (including me apparently!). It's not usually an issue unless you are going through Posterior Vitreous Detachment which is a kind of normal process that happens in middle age. I think the 2 conditions probably caused my detachment.
I've had a retinal lesion. At first they thought it was a detached retina.
Always thought it might be a Lyme symptom.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
The question being why most people do not benefit, or are not cured. We need to see if there is a common finding between patients that helps us understand the illness.

Ben, I know we discussed this briefly prior to the study coming out but do you know if Dr. Davis and/or Dr. Naviaux will be including autoantibody tests in future studies? I am thinking of the tests similar to those at the Charite or the Paval Panel from Mayo, etc.
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
Careful people! You run the risk of bringing that poster back for a rematch!
@Rose49 dealt with that situation beautifully - with compassion and class. Our community is behind her and Ron, I'm certain they feel that.
Let's remember that people can behave badly when they are frightened and project their own motivations onto others; kindness and reassurance can be all that is needed to diffuse these situations and that is what Ron and Rose have offered. Very good people, big brains, big hearts!

I was on the receiving end of a few frustrated and angry patient comments at one of the ME protests. It shook me up for a few weeks, because as a fellow ME peep I didn't understand 'why'?

I think that many years (some 30+) of bottled up emotions (anger, fear, feeling misunderstood, feeling unheard, frustration, losing own identity, impatience, abandonment, etc) on top of feeling very ill, makes it sometimes very difficult to communicate. We have been living in a state of survival (both patients and caregivers) and don't know what lies around the corner.

I agree, that kindness and caring is the best response. :hug::heart:
 

Biarritz13

Senior Member
Messages
699
Location
France
Hi @Theodore

Sure, people have improved, both on abx or av's. Just like some people have benefitted from methylation support. Or dietary changes. Etc.

But the majority have not, and many have been made worse. Otherwise we would not have a 'thriving' (dark?!) forum. I do not believe abx and av's are getting to the root issue for those of us with ME/CFS.

The question being why most people do not benefit, or are not cured. We need to see if there is a common finding between patients that helps us understand the illness.

Naviaux's paper strongly points us in that direction, with a potential biomarker and commonality that we may all share.


B

Right, it may be possible that they are not resolving the problem but it's not sure yet.

Whose who tried Valcyte with no success : Did the majority really stuck to it? Same with Ampligen. Same with Oxymatrine. What about the enterovirus theory of Dr. Chia? How many people quit their procotol because of the overwhelming symptoms? (I am not saying they shouldn't I am just asking).
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
Ben, I know we discussed this briefly prior to the study coming out but do you know if Dr. Davis and/or Dr. Naviaux will be including autoantibody tests in future studies? I am thinking of the tests similar to those at the Charite or the Paval Panel from Mayo, etc.

Hi @Gingergrrl

Yes an autoantibody panel is part of the Severely Ill BIG DATA study. Samples have recently been collected for all patients.

Here is the full list of tests for each patient:
Research Tests
  • RNA Gene Expression – PBMCs
  • RNA Gene Expression – NKs
  • RNA Gene Expression – Monocytes
  • RNA Gene Expression – T-Cells
  • RNA Gene Expression – B-Cells
  • RNA Gene Expression – Macrophages
  • RNA Gene Expression – Dendritic Cells
  • MicroRNA in Plasma
  • Proteomics
  • Cell-Free DNA
  • Whole Genome Sequencing
  • Whole Exome Genome Sequencing
  • Mitochondrial Genome Sequencing
  • Mitochondrial DNA/Nuclear DNA Radio
  • HLA DNA Sequencing
  • WBC density
  • Autoantibody panel
  • T-cell Repertoire DNA Sequencing-Stanford
  • T-cell Repertoire DNA Sequencing-Sequenta
  • CyTOF Standard Panel
  • CyTOF Additional Panels
  • Pan Viral Panel
  • Serum Cytokines
  • Ceres Nano Lyme
  • Microbiome – stool
  • Metabolomics – stool
  • Metabolomics – plasma
  • Metabolomics – urine
  • Heavy Metals – blood
  • Heavy Metals – urine
  • Mycotoxins by Magarray


Clinical Testing
  • Acylcarnitines
  • Ammonia
  • Bartonella extended cx
  • Biotin (Vitamin B7)
  • CBC (Complete Blood Count)
  • Chemistry Comprehensive Panel
  • Creatine Kinase
  • Copper
  • C- Reactive Protein
  • Cysteine
  • Folate
  • FSH (Follicle-Stimulating Hormone)
  • LH (Luteinizing Hormone)
  • Estrogen
  • HbA1C (Hemoglobin A1c)
  • Homocysteine
  • IgG Subsets
  • Lactate
  • Lyme Serology with reflex Western Blot
  • Lymphocyte Subsets
  • MMA (Methylmalonic Acid)
  • MTHFR Mutations (Methylenetetrahydrofolate)
  • Natural Killer Cell (Count & Function)
  • Organic Acids – urine
  • Pyruvate
  • Serotonin
  • Testosterone
  • Thyroid Panel
  • Uric Acid
  • Vasopressin/ADH
  • Viral Digital PCR
  • Viral Serologies:
    • EBV EA (Epstein Barr Virus EA)
    • EBV NA (Epstein Barr Virus NA)
    • EBV VCA (Epstein Barr Virus VCA)
    • CMV (Cytomegalovirus)
    • HHV-6 (Human Herpesvirus 6)
    • Parvovirus
    • HHV-7 (Human Herpes Virus 7)
    • HSV1&2 (Herpes Simplex 1 & 2)
  • Vitamin B12 (Cobalamin)
  • Vitamin D25 OH


Other Testing/Monitoring
  • Extended EEG
  • Sleep monitoring
  • Fitbit
  • Cognitive Testing
  • Questionnaires – SF36, PROMIS

It ain't just metabolomics :)


B