OAT, PLEASE INTERPET

[Jimbo39]

Too blurry. How's this?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Just read your Balancing Nutrients link. I'm getting ready to start Fredd's protocol and there doesn't seem to be much info about calcium and magnesium intake.

I am sorry, I don't know the answers to your questions. I start "X" low and go up gradually to tolerance. When the benefits of "X" stop, I stop "X" supplementation. As for magnesium, it is very personal the form and amount that work for every one.

 

[alicec]

have you ever correlated RBC/WBC counts with ox crises

My WBC/RBC counts are boringly normal, I don't even bother to check them any more, so no correlation that I am aware of.

 

[alicec]

Regarding calcium and magnesium supplementation, you may just have to give it a go and see how you feel. It is an individual thing.

RBC magnesium is a fair indicator of magnesium status, a place to start but calcium status is very difficult to gauge. If it is really off it will show up in lowish or highish ionised calcium in blood, not necessarily outside the normal range, just at either end. Outside the normal range indicates a serious problem since the body goes to extreme lengths to regulate blood calcium.

With the benefit of hindsight I realise that my own marginal calcium status was reflected in a high 1,25 diOH vit D to 25 OH vit D ratio - ionised calcium was always dead on mid-range. (1,25 diOH D, the active form, rises when calcium is in short supply, signalling to increase calcium absorption from the gut.) As soon as I added calcium, the D ratio normalised and my temporary intolerance of oral magnesium disappeared.

Start with magnesium, particularly if you suffer from glutamate excitotoxicity. Magnesium antagonises the NMDA receptor.

You may need to experiment with type and with route. I once had a lot of trouble tolerating magnesium but eventually found the bisglycinate form suited me (usually called chelate). It's impossible to predict - you just have to try.

You mention diarrhoea - you may need to build up bowel tolerance, so start low - maybe 100 mg.

The topical route is excellent and I find it very helpful for muscle pain. I use both magnesium oil (chloride form) and a concentrated Epsom salt solution (sulfate form), maybe 400 mg magnesium total. The magnesium solutions are quite irritating/ drying on the skin, especially in the large amounts that I use so you'd need to follow with oil/body lotion. (You can buy ready made lotions with magnesium but the ones I looked at were not very concentrated and I didn't like some of the ingredients).

Sometimes intolerance of magnesium means that something else is limiting - maybe B6, or a trace mineral.

Once you have a moderate amount of magnesium on board, you could maybe try some calcium.

Your quotes do typify the demonization of calcium which has made us fearful of the supplement, but it is all about balance.

No time to look at the stool test now, will do it tomorrow.

 

[Jimbo39]

My brain is dead today. Too much mental exertion. I'm stressing out about trying to get this right. I think I'm over thinking everything.

My Mg is 63.6 (30.1-56.5). My 25-OH Vit D is low, 40 (50-100). I don't know why. I'm taking 4,000 iu/day. NatureMade. Maybe the test was taken before I started supplementing. Can't remember. So it appears the 1,25 diOh D is the form that promotes calcium absorption in the gut and is an indication of low calcium. I don't know what that is and I can't afford any more tests, with the exception of HMT. I wonder if this is even necessary if I go on a symptom based protocol.

 

[Jimbo39]

Start with magnesium, particularly if you suffer from glutamate excitotoxicity. Magnesium antagonises the NMDA receptor.

Is this because Mg blocks the receptor sites and prevents calcium ions from getting in? @Gondwanaland's link Balancing Nutrients mentions Mg being implicated with depression tho appearantly high amounts are not good either. The site also says Mg can rob us of sodium, potassium, calcium, and iron. Once again this great balancing act. Sigh.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Once again this great balancing act. Sigh.

And you have read only the 1st page... That site helps to recognize the symptoms you get from the specific minerals and vitamins. Although it isn't exhaustive, it has helped me immensely.

My Mg is 63.6 (30.1-56.5).

Perhaps vit D supp is driving it up.

My 25-OH Vit D is low, 40 (50-100)

If that is ng/mL I don't think it is low despite the range (the range in my country is > 30 ng/mL).

I wonder if this is even necessary if I go on a symptom based protocol.

Indeed IMHO there are few tests that lead to significant conclusions (but they very from person to person).

 

[Jimbo39]

And you have read only the 1st page... That site helps to recognize the symptoms you get from the specific minerals and vitamins. Although it isn't exhaustive, it has helped me immensely.

No wonder it took you 2 years. There's a wealth of info there. I've been reading Dr Pall's posts but I think understanding this is more important.

If that is ng/mL I don't think it is low despite the range (the range in my country is > 30 ng/mL).

It is ng/ml. That's good to know.

 

[Gondwanaland]

No wonder it took you 2 years.

I am not ready with it yet
You can find some additional info here , here and here.

 

[Jimbo39]

I had 1/2 teaspoon of potassium glyconate and immediately got a stomach and headache. Ate a banana and a handful of macadamia nuts and the stomach ache went away. Live and learn. I wonder about the headache tho?

 

[Jimbo39]

I am not ready with it yet
You can find some additional info here , here and here.

thank you for those links but I think I'm having informational overload. Bookmarked to read when I'm able. I am familiar with Examine.com. Good site.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder about the headache tho?

In my experience a headache is low B2. In fact, taking B2 reduces the need for supplemental potassium according to this thread (hormone related).
Sorry for the info overload, been there.

 

[Gondwanaland]

marginal calcium status was reflected in a high 1,25 diOH vit D to 25 OH vit D ratio

Despite the fact they aren't measured in the same units?

From my lab they come like this:

1,25 - pg/mL
25OH - ng/mL

So I don't see how calculating a ratio between them would be meaningful.

 

[Jimbo39]

In my experience a headache is low B2. In fact, taking B2 reduces the need for supplemental potassium according to this thread (hormone related).
Sorry for the info

This is the proverbial chicken or the egg scenario. I'm trying to get potassium and magnesium in place before starting B protocol.

 

[Gondwanaland]

This is the proverbial chicken or the egg scenario. I'm trying to get potassium and magnesium in place before starting B protocol.

In my experience taking vitamins was the factor increasing the need for minerals.

 

[Jimbo39]

In my experience taking vitamins was the factor increasing the need for minerals.

So when you started on B vitamins, could you feel the need for certain minerals? How could you tell which minerals were being depleted?

 

[Gondwanaland]

So when you started on B vitamins, could you feel the need for certain minerals? How could you tell which minerals were being depleted?

I craved salt - high doses of vitamins taxed the adrenals
I had magnesium depletion - had a feeling of liver congestion - High dose B vitamins increase ATP and every molecule of ATP is bound to Mg. Also I had hypoglycemia from the B vits and metabolic acidosis and magnesium gets depleted by it too.

I tested magnesium, my results were:
Serum Mg 2.2 (1.6 - 2.3 mg/dL)
RBC Mg 5 (4.3 - 5.7 mg/dL)
Urine Mg 4.7 (7.3 - 12.2 mg/dL)
Hair 46 (35 - 120)

I was dramatically low in magnesium with the results above.

And I could never tolerate any potassium supplementation.

 

[alicec]

My 25-OH Vit D is low, 40 (50-100). I don't know why. I'm taking 4,000 iu/day. NatureMade. Maybe the test was taken before I started supplementing

That's borderline low according to the vit D council. It may take several months to stabilise levels after; supplementing so it would depend on when you had the test. That level of supplement should be adequate.

It could be worth checking again in a few months time, then you could ask your doctor to order the 1,25 diOH D test as well. It's a fairly standard test, I can't see that it would be expensive.

It is useful to check the 1,25 diOH D form also since it can be abnormal in various inflammatory conditions, including CFS.

I simply suggested it as a way of maybe getting insight into calcium status, which is otherwise difficult to do. Hair mineral analysis might perhaps be a some value also.

 

[alicec]

So I don't see how calculating a ratio between them would be meaningful.

A ratio is simply a way of expressing proportion. It can be calculated for any set of units so long as they are specified (so the ratio can be reproduced).

It has been observed that the proportional relationship of 1,25 diOH D to 25 OH D is high in inflammatory conditions (often very high) and in calcium deficiency, compared with a healthy population. Using the commonly expressed units of pg/ml or pmol/l for 1,25 diOH D and ng/ml or nmol/l for 25 OH D, the numbers work out as >2 being elevated.

You could if you wanted to convert to the same units, then the ratio would be > 0.0002. There's no advantage to that, the former number is much easier to work with, but both express exactly that same thing - the proportion of the two molecular forms.

 

[alicec]

I had 1/2 teaspoon of potassium glyconate and immediately got a stomach and headache.

I find potassium gluconate very irritating on the stomach and always take with food.