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ME/CFS Test? Can you raise your legs when lying down?

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
I thought this might be brain education. I only wish I had muscle strength. I just tried now, it's effortless to lift my legs.

A while back I read that many of us have cerebellum problems, unable to walk with eyes closed and placing one foot in front to the other. I found I couldn't do that without wobbling all over. I started practicing it, and got a bit better. When I tried it the other day, thinking about this thread, I'm again very shaky. Something to resume, getting balance together must be a good thing.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
A while back I read that many of us have cerebellum problems, unable to walk with eyes closed and placing one foot in front to the other. I found I couldn't do that without wobbling all over. I started practicing it, and got a bit better. When I tried it the other day, thinking about this thread, I'm again very shaky. Something to resume, getting balance together must be a good thing.
A PT has me do a nifty cognitive exercise for balance: lean a step ladder against a wall. Stand on one leg and "play the piano" with the other foot tapping lightly and quickly on various steps of the ladder, randomly.
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
A PT has me do a nifty cognitive exercise for balance: lean a step ladder against a wall. Stand on one leg and "play the piano" with the other foot tapping lightly and quickly on various steps of the ladder, randomly.

Thats a fun one Sushi. Didn't Laura Hillenbrand mention something about PT?

These tasks are easy to complete (lifting legs, walking with eyes closed, playing foot piano). My mechanics are working; it's my energy metabolism (powerhouse) that is failing me. I don't have any endurance; I get very tired after a few minutes. It's so frustrating to be able to do something for only a few minutes, and then have to lay down and rest for a few hours because I am exhausted. My lack of stamina affects both my physical and mental performance.

GD
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I cannot even lift one leg up by itself let alone both legs.

I wanted to post an update that I can now lift each leg separately with toes pointed all the way from the floor up to the full position!!! I had my second IVIG four days ago and this is the only thing that is different. Not only could I fully lift each leg without any assistance but doing so did not make me short of breath and I could do several reps of each.

I still cannot lift both legs together no matter how hard I try but I can fairly easily lift each leg separately and a few weeks ago, I could not do this at all. So the IVIG must be doing something b/c last night I was also able to lift a heavy plate from the table (in my wheelchair) and lift my arms to place it onto the sink. There was a time that I could not even lift the plate a few inches off the table let alone pick it up, transport it onto my lap in wheelchair, and then lift it onto the sink.

I know these sound like incredibly small tasks but they are very noticeable to me and my husband. Unless it is sheer coincidence, I am going to fight like hell to continue with IVIG for as long as possible. Does anyone grasp the mechanism of what two infusions of IVIG (at a pretty low dose compared to what I am aiming toward) could allow me to lift my legs for this exercise? Granted just one leg at a time but I literally could not do this a few weeks ago at all!
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Those are great news, I wish you many, many more small successes like this one to build your recovery !

Thanks @Dechi and I truly can feel the difference in my muscle strength and functioning after each IVIG. I was able to take a shower twice already this week (using my shower chair and with assistance setting things up) but the shower itself was not challenging like it used to be. I wish I understood what the IVIG was actually doing since I am far below the autoimmune dose at 24 grams and AI dose starts around 54 grams for me. In any case, am going to keep practicing the leg lifts and hope to some day be able to raise them both at the same time (if it is humanly possible for me)!
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Does anyone grasp the mechanism of what two infusions of IVIG (at a pretty low dose compared to what I am aiming toward) could allow me to lift my legs for this exercise?

That's wonderful news.

As for mechanism, the fact that you responded so quickly to an IV infusion rules out lack of core strength as an issue.

The quick response makes some sort of metabolic change less likely also I think.

It seems much more likely that there has been some change in signalling - either wrong messages diminishing or right messages now getting through.

Where the signal change is occurring is hard to say. Following the discussion earlier about your autoantibodies I guess neuromuscular junctions come to mind, but just speculation.

Hope the improvement continues with more infusions.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Where the signal change is occurring is hard to say. Following the discussion earlier about your autoantibodies I guess neuromuscular junctions come to mind, but just speculation.

This is my guess, too, although I completely lacked the ability to put it into words like you just did. There must be some kind of wrong signal that is now getting blocked or a right signal that is now getting through. I am certain it involves the autoantibodies, I just assumed that I would need to be on the autoimmune dose of IVIG (over 50 grams for my weight) and I am only on 24 grams so I didn't expect it to have an effect.

Do you have any idea how the IVIG is literally reversing my mast cell disease? Is this also a signaling issue to the mast cells that is getting corrected via the IVIG modulating my immune system back to the center?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I can do the leg lifts now with both legs together!!! I literally cannot believe it. I can do it fairly easily from the toes pointed position and can do it with moderate difficulty from the toes upward position. I am beyond stunned and speechless and had to post about it!
 

Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
Just coming to this thread now. If my feet are loose I can lift legs no problem. If pointed can lift a few inches but difficult. Feet flat I can't lift at all. Curious!

I'm generally interested in possible NMJ issues, trying to get a neurology referral, so @alicec input interesting.

@Gingergrrl
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergrrl Wow, what are those injections you're receiving ? What dosage and frequency ? And congrats, I am happy for you !

@Dechi, it is IVIG (intravenous immunoglobulin) infusions and nothing by injection. My current dose is 24 grams and frequency will be three weeks. There was almost a five week gap between first & second IVIG b/c of headache b/c the first time, the infusion speed was too fast. My next dose (barring any problems) will be 36 grams.

The dose is much lower than the autoimmune dose for my weight (which starts in the mid 50's and would be a divided dose over two days) but am now wondering if the lower dose is providing some benefits of the higher dose for an unknown reason. Maybe any dose of IVIG can affect autoimmune issues/antibodies but doctors do not realize this yet? Or maybe I am just a freak LOL.

I cannot think of any other reason why I can now do the leg lifts. I continue to use wheelchair, my core strength is the same, no other new meds, etc. So it is either the IVIG or an incredible coincidence.

Just coming to this thread now. If my feet are loose I can lift legs no problem. If pointed can lift a few inches but difficult. Feet flat I can't lift at all. Curious!

Jenny, what do you mean by your feet being "loose"? Do you mean lifting just one leg at a time or something else? I am the same in the sense that the leg lifts with toes pointed are MUCH easier than with feet flat. I can do the complete leg lifts with both legs together with toes pointed for several reps now whereas I struggle greatly to do just one lift with my feet flat. Not sure why!
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
@Dechi, it is IVIG (intravenous immunoglobulin) infusions and nothing by injection. My current dose is 24 grams and frequency will be three weeks.
... but am now wondering if the lower dose is providing some benefits of the higher dose for an unknown reason.
That makes sense to me. Think about LDN vs naltrexone. The lower dosage naltrexone (LDN) impacts the brain differently than the standard higher dosage of naltrexone.

I am looking forward to hearing about more improvements after your third treatment :)

It would super cool if you could transition off of the MCAS meds at some later point in time. Now that would turn a few heads.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Well, I have learned a painful but valuable lesson from doing the leg lifts yesterday. I was so happy that I could do them that I did 3-4 reps. As I was doing them, I felt pressure and pain in my neck, but in my stupidity, I did not connect how leg lifts could be affecting my neck?

I am now having significant neck pain and cannot even turn my head to the side. I had an injury to the cervical spine (I think C3 and C4) from a car accident in 2006 when my car was hit and flipped upside down. In addition, I had an injury to my right arm from Levaquin in 2010 in which I had to use my shoulder/neck to overcompensate and do the work of my arm for over a year.

My neck (and right arm) will never be normal but I never connected this to doing leg lifts. But the connection is that since my core muscles are non-existent, my entire spine all the way up to my neck was doing the work to lift my legs and this is why I felt no pain in my actual legs during the exercise but felt pressure in my neck.

Now I am having excruciating neck pain and no idea how long this will last. So I have to remember that even if the IVIG is making my muscles able to do more things, the muscles are not used to it and can injure in an instant. Plus I have been told by a few doctors that the neurotoxic reaction to Levaquin has damaged the mechanism that allows these injuries to heal in a normal fashion so I am doubly screwed.

So my plan to practice these leg lifts every day as a sign of measurable progress is no more and I am going to figure out something else. My ultimate plan is to be able to pass a spirometry (PFT) test but I will not even attempt that until I have done a minimum of six IVIG's (and it may never be possible b/c my diaphragm muscle and phrenic nerve are so weak).

Am going to answer GD's question in a new post.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
That makes sense to me. Think about LDN vs naltrexone. The lower dosage naltrexone (LDN) impacts the brain differently than the standard higher dosage of naltrexone.

I think it is similar but different and would love to hear thoughts on this. The dose of IVIG that I am doing is a standard dose for immune deficiency and is not considered "low" from that standpoint. If I had an immune deficiency issue then 24 grams is a decent dose (and there are people who do 5-10 grams). But for autoimmune dosing to attack my auto-antibodies, the dosing is much higher and for my weight starts around 54 grams and could even go above 100 grams (in a divided dose). Whereas LDN is always considered low dose regardless of your diagnosis or reason for taking it (i.e. some take it for Hashimoto's, some for ME/CFS, etc, but it's still LDN).

IVIG is more standardly approved for immune deficiency diagnoses (which I do not have) vs. autoimmune diagnoses. No doctor can explain exactly how IVIG works for autoimmune issues but there are cases of unbelievable recoveries even when we do not know the mechanism. And I think the exact mechanism of LDN probably is not known either?

My long-winded point :D is that if someone was using regular dose naltrexone to treat drug addiction but instead took only LDN, it probably would not work. But in my case, I am taking a low dose of IVIG for autoimmune issues and yet something in it is working and I wish I knew what and why!

I am looking forward to hearing about more improvements after your third treatment :)

From your lips to God's ears... and thank you again for all of your ongoing support, GD.

It would super cool if you could transition off of the MCAS meds at some later point in time. Now that would turn a few heads.

I actually think this could happen although at the moment I am not touching my MCAS med regime and it is staying intact. Instead, every day I am testing new foods and have a list of about 20 things to try that I consider low to moderate risk and if this goes well, I have a list of the highest risk (histamine) offenders that I plan to slowly try one by one. The most shocking part to me since IVIG, is that I can tolerate very strong smells without them getting imbedded into my brain for hours/days and causing allergic reactions and agitation. Now I notice the smell (and it still annoys me) but that is it and it dissipates!

My MCAS started in March 2015 so it's been approx 1.5 years but I do believe that the IVIG may put it into remission. I don't believe it would be "cured" and I'd always be at risk and will probably always take a mast cell stabilizer and H1 and H2 blocker b/c I've had subclinical MCAS symptoms life-long (in hindsight) even before it became acutely severe in early 2015 with the anaphylaxis and hospitalization, etc.

Somehow, all of this must relate to these autoantibodies (the MCAS reactions, the muscle weakness, and autonomic problems/POTS, and the breathing/lung weakness). So to tie it all back to the leg lifts, the IVIG must be attacking the autoantibodies which allows my muscles to do more (i.e. the leg lifts) and allows me to tolerate more foods without allergic reaction. I am waiting for the day that it allows me to stand, breathe, and walk without a wheelchair for more than 60 seconds but so far that has not happened!
 

Dechi

Senior Member
Messages
1,454
@Gingergrrl I am so sorry you're having neck pain ! I was thinking maybe your muscles had adapted to the exercise, and that's why younhave been able to lift. But of course using the neck is a no-no, you need to use your abdominal and core muscles. Probably of you had a trainer watching you and making sure you use the right muscles, you would be able to do it. But hey, who's got a trainer handy at home...

I think you should start with easier core strenghtening exercises. But for now, you need this neck pain to go away quick ! Do you have any muscle relaxant you can rub on your neck or take in a pill ?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
But of course using the neck is a no-no, you need to use your abdominal and core muscles.

I have no abdominal or core muscles (literally none) and as I was doing the leg lifts, I felt pressure/pain in my neck and head. I was just so astounded that I could do them, that I did not think of the pressure I was putting on my spine and neck b/c now my lower back hurts, too. My leg lifting career is officially over LOL.

Do you have any muscle relaxant you can rub on your neck or take in a pill ?

I have been using ice/heat and pain pill and later will use my TENS unit. I don't have any muscle relaxant cream and am not familiar with that (and am allergic to aspirin and NSAIDS which rules out a lot of products).