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BBC-article distinguishes clearly between having ME and being burnout.

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
- Doctors and the patients talks past each other. Doctors thinks that a CFS diagnosis is value neutral, whereas the patient hear "it's my own fault that I am sick and it is my responsibility to recov." But even if most people feel that mental disorders have undergraduate value than corporeal, it is not a given that your doctors are doing it, suggests Dr Lian.
@Kalliope, thanks for posting. But as you say, this is just the sort of sh**t we're sick to death of. That we don't like a psychological interpretation of our symptoms because we're upset about the stigma. Why don't these writers ever ask an actual patient what their concerns are? Why do they think its somehow okay just to put words in our mouth? Is it okay to tell a person with RA that their problem is purely psychological? Would an RA sufferer object to that merely because it carries a stigma? Of course not, its because that label is not only wrong, but it will prevent them getting any real, effective treatment.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
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2,396
Location
USA
This study looked into the link between burnout syndrome and infection. It found that those with burnout tended to report flu-like illnesses and gastroenteritis prior to the onset of burnout. So this study provides evidence that infections may be the cause burnout.

You've confused cause and effect. The study showed that burnout was a risk factor for infections, not the other way around.

The study you quoted said the following:
RESULTS:
For both levels of burnout, an increased incidence of common infections was found at baseline. The largest effect was found for the relationship between burnout and gastroenteritis (OR: 1.86, CI: 1.57-2.21 for Level 1 and OR: 3.59, CI: 2.09-6.17 for Level 2). The longitudinal analyses showed comparable results, although less pronounced. The largest effect was again found for gastroenteritis (RR: 1.55, CI: 1.28-1.86 for Level 1 and RR: 2.09, CI: 1.09-3.98 for Level 2). For flu-like illness and common cold, we found smaller but significant effects at Level 1, but not at Level 2. The subscale "Exhaustion" was found to be the strongest predictor for infections at both levels of burnout.

CONCLUSIONS:
This study provides evidence for burnout as a risk factor for common infections in a large heterogeneous population. Taking into account that burnout or its subscales are not primary etiological agents for these common infections, the observed effects are large.

How stress influences disease: Study reveals inflammation as the culprit
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120402162546.htm

Cohen argued that prolonged stress alters the effectiveness of cortisol to regulate the inflammatory response because it decreases tissue sensitivity to the hormone. Specifically, immune cells become insensitive to cortisol's regulatory effect. In turn, runaway inflammation is thought to promote the development and progression of many diseases.
Cohen, whose groundbreaking early work showed that people suffering from psychological stress are more susceptible to developing common colds, used the common cold as the model for testing his theory. With the common cold, symptoms are not caused by the virus -- they are instead a "side effect" of the inflammatory response that is triggered as part of the body's effort to fight infection. The greater the body's inflammatory response to the virus, the greater is the likelihood of experiencing the symptoms of a cold.
 
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CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
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2,396
Location
USA
I don't think burnout syndrome has been well studied, so I doubt the long term course of burnout syndrome has been examined much.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=burnout syndrome
Eh, not much, 880 articles, with a huge focus on burnout in medical professionals.

Which Professionals Are Prone to Burnout?
http://stress.lovetoknow.com/Which_Professionals_are_Prone_to_Burnout
According to the Mayo Clinic, job burnout is a type of job stress in which you might feel physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted. You might also question your career choice and the value of your contribution at work. While anyone can experience job burnout, there are some occupations where burnout tends to occur at a higher rate than others.
1. Physician
2. Nurse
3. Social Worker
4. Teacher
5. School Principal
6. Attorney
7. Police Officer
8. Public Accounting
9. Fast Food
10. Retail
Burnout is most prevalent in careers where the worker has little control over their workload. Having worked as a laboratory professional for 16 years prior to coming down with ME/CFS, I can swear that any job where you don't have time to pee or blow your nose is bound to have health repurcussions.
 
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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
We have been told so many times that our condition is a mental health issue, we just need to stop thinking we are sick, if we just changed our behavior, etc. etc. and we would feel so much better it can generalize to the opposite extreme by hesitation about attributing any physical symptoms, in this case exhaustion, as being linked to any psychological factor.

But these are actually two very different situations.
Burnout is most prevalent in careers where the worker has little control over their workload. Having worked as a laboratory professional for 16 years prior to coming down with ME/CFS, I can swear that any job where you don't have time to pee or blow your nose is bound to have health repurcussions.

When I taught students diagnosed with a mental illness, one of our attending psychiatrists would say she thought it was a good idea to take an occasional "mental health day" That it would help your productivity as well as your physical and mental health. Somewhat.

We never had a built in time of the day to take a break. We were always with the students and that included having lunch with them in the classroom. I had so many UTIs, it was ridiculous.

But for some jobs, such as the medical professions, it's almost impossible to do this unless you're on your deathbed. Even when I did that you had to give advance notice and the day before you almost ended up with doing twice the work preparing everything for the sub. You don't even have to be employed outside the home to get this. Think of all the exhausted parents who are sleep deprived. Especially with infants.

I loved my job and knew going in what it would entail. But that tiredness was very different than what I experience now. I don't think it made me ill or if so only a very small effect of how I felt at the beginning as we usually have a precipitating event. Otherwise, everyone in the professions listed above and every parent would end up with cfs/me.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,869
You've confused cause and effect. The study showed that burnout was a risk factor for infections, not the other way around.

You are right, I misread that study.

Nevertheless, I'd still like to see research examining whether those with burnout had a flu-like or gastrointestinal infection in the months just prior to their burnout onset.

If you look at your list of professions which carry the highest risk for burnout, it's interesting to note that these are nearly all professions which put you in close physical contact with people, and in the case of the physicians and nurses at the top of the list, put you in close physical contact with sick people. School teachers too are exposed to a lot of bugs, as groups of school kids always have infections going around.

Such people may be more likely to contract an infection from their clients.

Which Professionals Are Prone to Burnout:
1. Physician
2. Nurse
3. Social Worker
4. Teacher
5. School Principal
6. Attorney
7. Police Officer
8. Public Accounting
9. Fast Food
10. Retail



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=burnout syndrome
Eh, not much, 880 articles, with a huge focus on burnout in medical professionals.

Wow, I had no idea that burnout was such an established medical diagnosis and condition.
 
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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
You are right, I misread that study

It happens to the best of us. Damn fog!

Such people may be more likely to contract an infection from their clients
This is true as far as exposure but that makes me wonder why not all of those within the above occupations end up getting me/cfs.

However, it would be interesting to see if there is a higher rate since the chances increase that you may be exposed to something that would trigger the me/cfs. If you belong to the subgroup where there is a precipitating event. I'm not sure there have been any studies on that. Maybe it could mean you're chances of getting me/cfs is earlier than if you aren't exposed but I have no idea how that could even be studied.

I think genetics might play a part, but I'm only speculating.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,869
I wonder if burnout syndrome could have a different relation to infections than ME/CFS does. ME/CFS appears to often be triggered by single infection (ie, ME/CFS often appears after a flu-like or gastrointestinal illness); but perhaps — and I am just speculating here — burnout could be related to an individual's total viral, bacteria, fungal and protozoal load in their body. That is to say, to all the chronic infections they have picked up in their life.

If you work in a profession where you are in close contact with a wide range of people, and are thereby possibly picking up more infections that the average person, you are going to have higher microbial load in your body.

Couple that with a demanding, stressful job — and we know stress know weakens immunity — then the viruses in your body may be reactivating more, and the microbes in your body might be generally more active. This in turn may ramp up systemic inflammation in the body, which is known to induce brain inflammation by various pathways (such as the vagus nerve pathway); this brain inflammation may then affect brain functioning (recent research shows that mental symptoms such as depression may be underpinned by brain inflammation).
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
@Hip Not everything that goes wrong with us is going to be related to a virus or an infection. When a person is working their ass off, not getting enough sleep, not getting any exercise except for walking around the office or to-and-from their car, and worrying about how they are ever going to get caught up at work, it stands to reason that people are going to burn out. I had a doctor diagnose me as being burned out. I didn't just randomly come up with the diagnosis myself. I had blood work done and everything looked good. And once I left the company, it was like a huge cloud (or possibly a boulder) had been lifted off of me. I'm not sure why you find this so difficult to understand. I'm guessing that you have never been in that position yourself otherwise you would get it. :confused:
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,869
@Hip Not everything that goes wrong with us is going to be related to a virus or an infection.

I already indicated that I accept that stress and psychosocial factors are involved, but my view is that you just don't stop looking for other possible causal factors just because you have found one factor. Diseases are often multifactorial.

Even with ME/CFS, if enteroviral or EBV infection turn out to be the primary cause, it is still likely that ME/CFS etiology is multifactorial, and a virus alone may not trigger it. It may require the presence of several other factors in tandem with a virus to trigger ME/CFS.



I'm not sure why you find this so difficult to understand. I'm guessing that you have never been in that position yourself otherwise you would get it.

Actually, I have been in a similar position myself, which is what has informed my ideas about burnout and nervous breakdowns.

Long before I had ME/CFS, I was hit by what seemed to be a kind or nervous breakdown / generalized anxiety disorder. I was working as a digital media computer programmer, an interesting and quite low stress job that I really liked, and everything was going very well in my life (in terms of friends, relationships, etc). In fact it was one of the happiest and most interesting periods in my life.

Then out of the blue, for no apparent reason, I started to develop significant anxiety. I began to inexplicably become fearful of flying, and I developed a weird autism-like anxiety when meeting people socially. Being with friends or work colleagues became a horrible ordeal of anxiety; normal conversation and social interaction triggered this autism-like mental tension (except for some reason when I was with my long term girlfriend, or with close family). (This is not what is classed as social anxiety; that is quite a different thing.)

I struggled on, but eventually the autism-like anxiety made my work almost impossible, because all face to face social interactions became very difficult, and so I dropped out of doing work more and more (I was working freelance on short term contracts of a few months, and started to take on less and less work, because it was too much for me). My work also became difficult because my illness affected my cognitive performance. And I had increasing fatigue, making it hard to get up in the morning. And I had some mild depression.

My worldview also turned quite bleak and cynical. I am usually very optimistic, but suddenly I became pessimistic about the world and the people around me. I started to think that everyone's motivations were rather base and cynical.


Along with these mental symptoms, I also developed physical symptoms: chronic severe diarrhea (which lasted for many years), which I think was IBS-D. And very tense muscles throughout my body. It is possible that the mental symptoms could have been the result of severe IBS, because anxiety and depression can come along with IBS. However, my mental symptoms were strong enough to destroy my career, and eventually my relationship with my girlfriend (which had been going very well for many years until I became ill), so I tend to think of my experience as a kind of nervous breakdown.


My best guess is that I contracted some type of gut infection that triggered the IBS with severe chronic diarrhea (my mother also developed IBS out of the blue more or less at the same time as me, suggesting an infectious cause going around).

Because my life was so easy-going, stress-free and happy at the time, there is no way I can put down my sudden onset nervous breakdown-type symptoms to psychosocial factors. To my mind, there had to be a physical cause, such as an infection.
 
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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
This points out the difference between exhaustion from burn out vs. me/cfs.
The burnout syndrome is a set of physical and mental symptoms including:
  • exhaustion/fatigue
  • headaches
  • depression
  • anxiety
  • insomnia, excessive sleeping and/or dysregulated body clock
  • chronic pain
  • loss of appetite and/or difficulty digesting food (including slow stomach emptying)
  • IBS symptoms such as constipation and diarrhea
  • difficulty regulating temperature, feeling very cold without having a fever, and night sweats
  • abnormal hormone levels (including thyroid, cortisol and testosterone)
  • suppressed or altered immunity, including susceptibility to viral infections and increased allergic symptoms
Not all patients will experience all the symptoms, and other symptoms can also occur. Psychological symptoms such as lack of enthusiasm/motivation, cynicism and depersonalisation and withdrawal may also be present, especially if the burnout is due to workplace stress. The physical symptoms of burnout and CFS appear to be identical except in their severity and attribution, with the dividing line between the two diagnoses being set at the point where the symptoms become highly disabling, or whether the cause is thought to be physical (CFS) or psychological (burnout)
My bold.

 

bertiedog

Senior Member
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Location
South East England, UK
Wouldn't a burnout syndrome massively impact one's microbiome and also one's ability to digest food properly causing a leaky gut syndrome that could well lead us into autoimmune issues as well as ME/CFS?

Psm
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,869
Wouldn't a burnout syndrome massively impact one's microbiome and also one's ability to digest food properly causing a leaky gut syndrome that could well lead us into autoimmune issues as well as ME/CFS?

Quite possibly, but I don't think anyone has checked to see if there is increased intestinal permeability in burnout syndrome, because burnout is generally viewed as a caused by psychological / psychosocial factors, not by physical biological factors.

Unless researchers start looking at possible biological factors behind burnout, we will not be able to answer these questions.
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
I already indicated that I accept that stress and psychosocial factors are involved, but my view is that you just don't stop looking for other possible causal factors just because you have found one factor. Diseases are often multifactorial.

Long before I had ME/CFS, I was hit by what seemed to be a kind or nervous breakdown / generalized anxiety disorder.

Because my life was so easy-going, stress-free and happy at the time, there is no way I can put down my sudden onset nervous breakdown-type symptoms to psychosocial factors. To my mind, there had to be a physical cause, such as an infection.
I don't consider job burnout to be a disease. In my case, it wasn't something that suddenly happened, but evolved over several years. You say that you were working in a low stress job, your life was easy going at the time, and that out of the blue you developed anxiety. That doesn't sound like job burnout at all. So possibly in your case it was due to a virus or infection. I did work in a high stress job for a high stress company for five long stressful years. Big difference!!
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
Wouldn't a burnout syndrome massively impact one's microbiome and also one's ability to digest food properly causing a leaky gut syndrome that could well lead us into autoimmune issues as well as ME/CFS?

Psm
That's a psychosomatic account of CFS. I would need to see persuasive strong evidence before accepting such an account - vague plausibility just isn't enough, especially given the harm incorrect psychosomatic explanations can do (and have done in the past).
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
From a review of Anna Katharina Schaffner's history of exhaustion:

When Schaffner reaches the turn of the twentieth century, she introduces the biggest problem in her book: the gulf between theories about exhaustion and actual experiences of exhaustion. This gulf is at its widest in her chapter on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, a condition about which medical practitioners and patients often have extremely divergent opinions. Although most doctors and researchers agree that there is a microbiological trigger for the syndrome, they also see patients’ behavioral and psychological responses as perpetuating the condition. At its extreme, this view holds that CFS is a psychological illness with physical symptoms. Most patients, meanwhile—often housebound, even bedbound, unable to do the simplest task without suffering debilitating exhaustion—vehemently reject this model, arguing that CFS is a physical, and only physical, disease.

In writing about CFS, Schaffner returns to an idea she first mentions in her introduction, borrowed from the medical historian Edward Shorter: that patients, absorbing the medical and cultural discourses of their time, unconsciously display the psychosomatic symptoms that doctors will take seriously. Shorter is convinced that CFS is all in the mind, a twentieth-century version of hysteria with subjective symptoms (fatigue, muscle pain) both impossible to disprove and in line with what “doctors under the influence of the central-nervous paradigm [expect] to see”.

https://newrepublic.com/article/135...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 

PennyIA

Senior Member
Messages
728
Location
Iowa
I found it interesting that 'burnout syndrome' includes the list of symptoms that it does.

I've been burnt out at work before. Prior to ME/CFS taking a week of vacation was refreshing and restorative and energizing. Attitude didn't always stay up but that was always an absolute and direct correlation to the level of bs I had to put up with ... understandably, bad bosses create bad attitudes.

BUT... when burnt out (pre ME/CFS)... I didn't have that whole list of symptoms. I had headaches, irritability, fatigue, and a slightly higher risk factor for catching colds/flu... assuming all of those were directly tied to high stress from overwork and underappreciation from bosses.

I absolutely didn't have appetite changes, anxiety, sleeping issues, gut issues or ANY OF THAT. Maybe, maybe a little insomnia from stress.

I can't imagine why feeling burnt out at work WOULD cause this list of symptoms.... at least not on any kind of consistant basis. LIke I said occaisonal insomnia, maybe. IBS? diarrhea? temperature regulation issues? That sounds like an illness to me that someone didn't want to take the time to figure out.
  • anxiety
  • insomnia, excessive sleeping and/or dysregulated body clock
  • chronic pain
  • loss of appetite and/or difficulty digesting food (including slow stomach emptying)
  • IBS symptoms such as constipation and diarrhea
  • difficulty regulating temperature, feeling very cold without having a fever, and night sweats
  • abnormal hormone levels (including thyroid, cortisol and testosterone)
  • suppressed or altered immunity, including susceptibility to viral infections and increased allergic symptoms

Seriously? LIke let's just throw names at things and tell people they are just burnt out when this list of issues, SEEM to be related to true illness, not just being 'stressed' for too long.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,869
You say that you were working in a low stress job, your life was easy going at the time, and that out of the blue you developed anxiety.

I developed not just anxiety, but several mental and physical symptoms that resemble burnout / nervous breakdown. And these symptoms did not go away when I was forced to stop work, but went on for many years. In fact the anxiety has still not resolved (and was massively worsened when I later caught the virus that triggered my ME/CFS).

I am not sure if burnout / nervous breakdown is like you are portraying it: if the burnout clears up in a few weeks or months of leaving your stressful job, that does not sound like burnout to me. That's just being run down a bit.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I can't imagine why feeling burnt out at work WOULD cause this list of symptoms.... at least not on any kind of consistant basis. LIke I said occaisonal insomnia, maybe. IBS? diarrhea? temperature regulation issues? That sounds like an illness to me that someone didn't want to take the time to figure out.
I don't think a site called "mind-body health" is going to be a good source of diagnostic criteria, or even general symptom lists. Just because symptoms are included on a list, it doesn't mean those symptoms are indicative of that diagnosis. People put crap up on the internet all the time - there is no quality control.

Burnout probably does exist as a legitimate stress-related illness resulting from over-work in any context. When quacks add pain, IBS, temperature dysregulation, etc, that just means they are quacks and inappropriately diagnosing burnout in patients who have something else. It does not mean that the diagnosis is never appropriate.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
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Location
South East England, UK
That's a psychosomatic account of CFS. I would need to see persuasive strong evidence before accepting such an account - vague plausibility just isn't enough, especially given the harm incorrect psychosomatic explanations can do (and have done in the past).

I strongly disagree that what I have described is a psychosomatic theory, it's more like a physiological process that can take place. The immune system attacking proteins that have escaped from the gut causing inflammation and autoimmune illnesses could hardly be described as psychosomatic.

ORIGINAL RESEARCH ARTICLE
Front. Syst. Neurosci., 23 April 2013 | http://dx.doi.org/10.3389/fnsys.2013.00009


Pam