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Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
My naturopath recommended a teaspoon of ACV with another of bitters he mixes and add a little water. It's not the same as Betaine HCL, but it does help over time. I also can't tolerate the Betaine--but because it's yet another thing that affects my sleep. Not in a good way!
Interesting. Thanks for that. Do you have the name of the bitters?
I took more molybdenum today and felt very tired for most of it. (My moly is by BodyBio - very simple drops which can be found on Amazon, I believe) No energy or will to go beyond the front stoop. Oh dear.
Hope this improves for you. I don't seem to feel anything from moly. Then again, I'm not sure. I'm able to manage a little better these days without getting icy and achy. But that could be because I'm limiting myself to 15/20mins walk instead of trying to push for more. I was able for much more after a couple of months of the b12 oils, but that was before I weaned off hydrocortisone. I think I'll just have to be patient until my adrenals kick in properly. Maybe the molybdenum is helping though because even with short walks I was having PEM and now I'm not this week (on moly about a week now).
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
It might be interesting to know that on another thread here I read that zinc helps to convert B2 to FMN. I haven't checked that out, but if you're taking the basic B2, it may also explain why you need/tolerate so much to get your good results. Just a thought.
I think it's time for some zinc (even a small amount)! I know we discussed it before re cortisol lowering, but I was looking at my diet and it really doesn't contain a lot of zinc. Can I ask which form of zinc/and dose do you take?
Did you know that this is a form of earthing?
I had heard vaguely about 'earthing' but hadn't a clue what it was. This is absolutely fascinating, Kath. Thanks for link. I was always one for going barefoot as much as possible. I just always loved nature and getting as close to it as possible. At least my instincts seem to be working! If it helps cortisol, I'll keep doing it for sure.
Wow, chipmunks! I've only ever seen them in a zoo! I thought they were cute, but I don't think I'd fancy them all over my back garden!
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
@dogged_days Hope you're doing ok. I got a notification on email from you but can't find the post. You mention less hair loss now. That could possibly be removing the Dhea. It causes hair loss in a lot of women (and lots in me when I mistakenly tired it for a few weeks a couple of years ago), by increasing testosterone and DHT hormone (the same hormone that can cause hair loss in men too).

Just now I got a painful split at side of mouth and last week too. You mention angular chelitis is back for you. For me, I think it's because I added 50mg b6 last two weeks, and lowered my b2. Maybe my b2 is too low now. On it goes...
 
Messages
16
Hi @Athene. Thanks for the tip on the DHEA, and thank you for checking in. I hope you are feeling well lately. I had to read up things in the FDC & adult metal chelation yahoo group. The post-amalgam dump phase began (relatively early) and my symptoms started getting out of hand. Candida flare, fibro aches again, and the mental symptoms I’ve come to recognize so well. I went into donut hole insufficiency with the 5mthf. It crept up on me. I couldn’t move; everything ached so badly. I upped the dose to 25mgs on Friday and my fibro symptoms abated Tuesday. So it took 5 days to correct. So many changes continuing to occur from the Bs. Still using Freddd’s to get me out of the folate bind. I treated the candida with a Chinese herb and it’s coming along. Per AC protocol I can dose up to 4 x 10k biotin per day to help with yeast. Plus a few other things I may bring on board before I try DMSA (it causes more sfx than dmps). When the weight gain started two months ago, I should have suspected candida, given the metals activity, but I didn’t catch it.

I did my first round of dmps chelation using the Cutler protocol. With the yeast flare, I couldn’t deal with dmsa at this point. I had a lot of anxiety about it. It went well, 78 hours. It took all I had to stick to this regimen, and dosing was every 6 hours. DMSA & ALA dosing is every 3 hours, which will be difficult with work. I hope I get used to it…Now I just have to do it about 300 more times…! But this is the starting line I've been trying to reach for 4 years, so I am just happy to be here. :)
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
HI there @Athene* I hope you're doing well. My experiment with staying off the Bs has surely come to an end and left me wrung out. I couldn't stand the facial tightness and tingling any more and jumped back into the game two days ago. Further, I think my B-12 levels were tanking. I was very unbalanced and exhausted. The dose is still low by any standards here--only 3,000 mcg per day, but it took away much of the symptoms.

As always, I seem to be doing more than one thing at a time, so there's not a straight line between supplement and reaction...but I think it's fairly clear.

I was interested to see that molybdenum was causing you stomach upset. Even at about 30mcg/ day, mine was doing the same, so I have done a bit of research on it. The BodyBio drops I use are Ammonium Molybdate, and apparently the best form to use is a cheated amino acid form. There is one by Country Life that has 150mcg/tablet that I think I may try. What form have you been using?

During the past two weeks of experimentation with the molybdenum, it always gave me a very tired, even exhausted chest-heavy feeling. At first it helped my sleep at night, but very quickly made it impossible for me to go to sleep at all until at least 2 a.m. I know you've been having sleep issues since going off the hydrocortisone, but wondered if this might be contributing. Last night, after taking none yesterday, I fell asleep instantly by about 11.

Unfortunately I woke at 1:30 with my heart racing. It was not potassium need as I'd had some just before bed, but I drank another 300mg just to make sure, and it didn't help. Straight to the Propanolol then, the beta-blocker, which resolved it completely within about fifteen minutes. But then, as always at full doses at night, it kept me fully awake till 5:00 this morning, when 1/4 Valium helped me fall asleep.

Every night, a new adventure...

But it does re-confirm (if I needed reconfirmation) that the B12 is stimulating the adrenals and the adrenaline, or other hormonal stuff which the molybdenum might have taken care of soaking up had I taken any yesterday. Today I'm going to try taking a bit with my lunch to see if that will help. At this point I'm not about to go back on B12. It would feel reckless to do so.

Just as a side note, Athene, I well know that you worked on your adoB12 levels orally even before you switched to the oils. What level were you up to? I think this is obviously the way to go to help the body adjust to the jump/switch over to the oils. Raising my MeB12 levels was what helped me tolerate the oils the first time and I'd like to head back I that direction.

My husband started getting concerned by my symptoms over the weekend and asked if I ought to have injections. I used you as a reference point as someone who did just fine on the oils. Furthermore, I don't know how I would test given my even admittedly low B12 doses.

The good news is that I have my annual physical in a week and a half. Maybe some things will come clear (though I'm not holding my breath!). Things change, it seems, slowly, over time, and we are left to wait and see.

The bad news is that we're going on a family vacation to Paris and the South of France to see my brother-in-law's family at the end of July, and I am completely dreading it. One suitcase full of supps, I'm thinking! And lots of research to try to have some control over the situation--if that's even possible.

Way too hot here in Boston. And muggy. I walked around the block twice yesterday and that felt like more than enough.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Woops, a couple of other things. I've been AWOL over the July 4th holiday here in the states--cookouts, family, nice really. Normal-feeling.

@Athene* The zinc I take is NOW Zinc Piclinate, 50 mg capsules, which I divide into 4 into those empty gel-caps, then take one with lunch and dinner. So 25 mg/ day. I titrated my way up with the zinc BodyBio drops and at the start there was a decided good effect on my sleep. They've never upset my stomach. That said, with all the minerals Greg says are necessary for the B2/B12 axis, I've been thinking seriously about a mineral supplement...one that can be titrated over time. Thorne has one called Pic-Mins, but it seems to have a lot of Boron, which I know nothing about. I'm going to continue this research.

It's just that with a compromised gut, absorption may be poor.

I also take 1/4 of a manganese tablet most days, a 10 mg tablet by Source Naturals--an amino acid chelate, it appears, which is the most easily absorbed form, or so my reading proclaims. The "B2 I love you" thread had a lot on it about manganese and the repair of the Liver's endoplasmic reticulum (sure, you know all about that, right?!) and improvement of iron levels, etc. Another thing Greg mentions on a regular basis.

Finally, Bitters: It's just a mix the naturopath makes up,pouring in a little of this and a little of that. This and that being Gentian, Oregon Grape and Dandelion. But I know you can find mixes with similar ingredients at any supplement site.

I really like my naturopath, though Greg is constantly telling me I'm wasting my money, that his protocol is all I need. If only I could get on it! I haven't managed to get fully onto the naturopath's gut protocol either. Just too much with the molybdenum and B12 issues.

That said, I think what we all need is about a month in a fancy spa, vitamin, hormonal and dietary support, fecal transplants to renew our gut, and then back into the world, shiny and new and in full working order.

Right? It's not just one thing. Everything is connected--and for each of us, in a slightly different balance.

For now, we're each on a wobble board, uncomfortably trying to keep our balance.
 
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Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
HI there @Athene* I hope you're doing well. My experiment with staying off the Bs has surely come to an end and left me wrung out. I couldn't stand the facial tightness and tingling any more and jumped back into the game two days ago. Further, I think my B-12 levels were tanking. I was very unbalanced and exhausted. The dose is still low by any standards here--only 3,000 mcg per day, but it took away much of the symptoms.

As always, I seem to be doing more than one thing at a time, so there's not a straight line between supplement and reaction...but I think it's fairly clear.

I was interested to see that molybdenum was causing you stomach upset. Even at about 30mcg/ day, mine was doing the same, so I have done a bit of research on it. The BodyBio drops I use are Ammonium Molybdate, and apparently the best form to use is a cheated amino acid form. There is one by Country Life that has 150mcg/tablet that I think I may try. What form have you been using?

During the past two weeks of experimentation with the molybdenum, it always gave me a very tired, even exhausted chest-heavy feeling. At first it helped my sleep at night, but very quickly made it impossible for me to go to sleep at all until at least 2 a.m. I know you've been having sleep issues since going off the hydrocortisone, but wondered if this might be contributing. Last night, after taking none yesterday, I fell asleep instantly by about 11.

Unfortunately I woke at 1:30 with my heart racing. It was not potassium need as I'd had some just before bed, but I drank another 300mg just to make sure, and it didn't help. Straight to the Propanolol then, the beta-blocker, which resolved it completely within about fifteen minutes. But then, as always at full doses at night, it kept me fully awake till 5:00 this morning, when 1/4 Valium helped me fall asleep.

Every night, a new adventure...

But it does re-confirm (if I needed reconfirmation) that the B12 is stimulating the adrenals and the adrenaline, or other hormonal stuff which the molybdenum might have taken care of soaking up had I taken any yesterday. Today I'm going to try taking a bit with my lunch to see if that will help. At this point I'm not about to go back on B12. It would feel reckless to do so.

Just as a side note, Athene, I well know that you worked on your adoB12 levels orally even before you switched to the oils. What level were you up to? I think this is obviously the way to go to help the body adjust to the jump/switch over to the oils. Raising my MeB12 levels was what helped me tolerate the oils the first time and I'd like to head back I that direction.

My husband started getting concerned by my symptoms over the weekend and asked if I ought to have injections. I used you as a reference point as someone who did just fine on the oils. Furthermore, I don't know how I would test given my even admittedly low B12 doses.

The good news is that I have my annual physical in a week and a half. Maybe some things will come clear (though I'm not holding my breath!). Things change, it seems, slowly, over time, and we are left to wait and see.

The bad news is that we're going on a family vacation to Paris and the South of France to see my brother-in-law's family at the end of July, and I am completely dreading it. One suitcase full of supps, I'm thinking! And lots of research to try to have some control over the situation--if that's even possible.

Way too hot here in Boston. And muggy. I walked around the block twice yesterday and that felt like more than enough.
Hi Kath, The molybdenum is fine really - it was some hormonal fluctuation causing the gut issue and has now vanished. I can even take moly on an empty stomach now. I take the Solgar amino acid chelated form so it looks like you're on to something by finding out that type is a good one.

The Ado - I took 8mg daily before the spray. It's this one. Greg says it's useless, but I think he assumed I sucked it quickly and swallowed most of it like a lot of people might do. I held it under top lip (between top lip and gum) for up to an hour, or 3/4 of an hour at least. I think some of it did get in.

I'm now on 3 sprays on Me/Adob12 daily now (@dogged_days - just in case you want to know). I'm too worried about pernicious anaemia diagnosis not to. But to be honest I'm probably being over careful. I am definitely improving more on the oils by the way, compared with injections. The oil is definitely working. It did take me a long time to make the switch from injections - psychologically the shift was hard because injections feel so serious and 'must' be working. In fact, the oils keep me more stable i.e. no major crash in three months now.

It's still fluctuating markedly with me - the improvement is most noticeable in the progesterone phase when there's more cortisol around. I can go for a walk plus do housework and not crash. When progesterone is low, my cortisol drops and I'm weak, achy and cold and barely manage to do the washing up, but that only lasts a few days and as cortisol slowly builds up again, I quickly improve. I'm determined not to revert to cortisol again. I'm oestrogen dominant too (common with hypothyroidism) so that means trouble in terms of thyroid. Thyroid hormone is helped into cells by having progesterone around and when too much oestrogen (relative to progesterone) is around (I still get those surges), it binds to thyroid hormone molecules and stops it reaching the cells. I think I'd be better off with no hormones and then I'd just supplement with a little progesterone!

Having said that, before the b12 oils I was constantly (profoundly) weak, achy and icy and spent most of my time in bed. My hair has stopped falling out too since the last three weeks so I'm taking that as a good sign that the body is healing and I've also realised today I have eyebrows and eyelashes coming in properly again. Small things I know...

I notice my muscles are getting more visible again - slight, but definitely there. My dry eyes are almost never dry now. I had severe dry eyes and used to use about 20 drops per day of Hyloforte (great stuff for eyes). Now I only use two drops, if any.

I sleep longer, but since dropping hydrocortisone, can only get to sleep around 5am. At least I stay asleep for 7 or 8 hours, but I feel the day is wasted this way. Still, an awful lot better than 3 or 4 hours.

*Edit. I'm happy to say I seem to hardly ever have trouble finding the word I want when I'm talking (that was happening more over the last two years and was really frightening me). My concentration seems better too.

So, yes, I would say the oils are safe and indeed more effective than the injections.

I still have some very rough times, but an upward trend. By the way, I'm now on 400-800mg potassium daily with potassium food as well. And 5MTHF 12mg daily. I seem to need the 5MTHF a lot, but I have multiple B12 and Folate ++ snps, so I may take the high dose folate for a while yet, just in case...

I hope you manage to enjoy that holiday. I know how it can be tough to manage, but you might be lucky and have a few of your good days..fingers crossed for you!
 
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Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Woops, a couple of other things. I've been AWOL over the July 4th holiday here in the states--cookouts, family, nice really. Normal-feeling.

@Athene* The zinc I take is NOW Zinc Piclinate, 50 mg capsules, which I divide into 4 into those empty gel-caps, then take one with lunch and dinner. So 25 mg/ day. I titrated my way up with the zinc BodyBio drops and at the start there was a decided good effect on my sleep. They've never upset my stomach. That said, with all the minerals Greg says are necessary for the B2/B12 axis, I've been thinking seriously about a mineral supplement...one that I can be titrated over time. Thorne has one called Pic-Mins, but it seems to have a lot of Boron, which I know nothing about. I'm going to continue this research.

It's just that with a compromised gut, absorption may be poor.

I also take 1/4 of a manganese tablet most days, a 10 mg tablet by Source Naturals--an amino acid chelate, it appears, which is the most easily absorbed form, or so my reading proclaims. The "B2 I love you" thread had a lot on it about manganese and the repair of the Liver's endoplasmic reticulum (sure, you know all about that, right?!) and improvement of iron levels, etc. Another thing Greg mentions on a regular basis.

Finally, Bitters: It's just a mix the naturopath makes up,pouring in a little of this and a little of that. This and that being Gentian, Oregon Grape and Dandelion. But I know you can find mixes with similar ingredients at any supplement site.

I really like my naturopath, though Greg is constantly telling me I'm wasting my money, that his protocol is all I need. If only I could get on it! I haven't managed to get fully onto the naturopath's gut protocol either. Just too much with the molybdenum and B12 issues.

That said, I think what we all need is about a month in a fancy spa, vitamin, hormonal and dietary support, fecal transplants to renew our gut, and then back into the world, shiny and new and in full working order.

Right? It's not just one thing. Everything is connected--and for each of us, in a slightly different balance.

For now, we're each on a wobble board, uncomfortably trying to keep our balance.
Thanks so much for this helpful update, Kath. Lots of very good info there. I haven't got around to the manganese yet, but I must do. 'Liver's endoplasmic reticulum' - no, I don't know about that at all. Interesting. With hypothyroidism, I'm sure my liver needs all the help it can get. My liver markers are always very good on serum tests, but I don't really trust serum tests completely anymore. Maybe the mismatch between serum and cellular readings only applies to b12 and folate and other vitamins and minerals and maybe the organ function serum tests are accurate? Not sure..

Agree re compromised gut - we're a lll most likely compromised there from years of b12 deficiency and coeliac and hypothyroid in many cases too..

I like your Pic Mins idea. I'm fed up taking so many things separately all day long!

Many thanks again :)
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
As always, Athene, your thoughts are welcome and offer some insight into a rough situation. I've held off writing to Greg because I've been trying to get better insight into what's going on with me and I don't think it's ever easy to go on a single day or two. Just look at you own gut reaction,at first interpreted to be from the molybdenum, and later, revised to hormonal issues. This happens to all of us. Sometimes I marvel that it ever comes clear at all.

The reality seems to be this: I react very strongly to the molybdenum. Taken in the evening, it eroded my sleep; taken in the afternoon, I feel exhausted and lethargic and have that chest-heavy feeling. It was all I could do,to spin the lettuce spinner this evening for our salads. That didn't feel good.

I would say more, but I suspect that tomorrow it will all look different, so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

I know you were absorbing some of that Ado, despite Greg's quip. He has that reproachful way of commenting on anything that doesn't follow his biochemical knowledge of the situation....and perhaps the oils are better. But working with the sublinguals gave you a good start.

How can I leave off with something upbeat? I'm looking forward to the 'Outlander' finale tomorrow, despite the fact that it means the Battle of Colloden, the Brits massacering the Scots and the end of the Highland culture. (Oh dear...). Maybe I'll cut my molybdenum dose to a quarter and find I have the energy to go for a walk...
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Okay, just to update here. I'm pulsing the Transdermal Oils again, alternating with the enzymatic therapy MeB12. Along with this I have begun to titrate up the Adenosyl B12--up to 3,000mcg today and this is all clearly helping. In fact, it seemingly makes it easier to tolerate the molybdenum, so once again, everything is connected. The nights after the oils I sleep little; on alternate nights, I sleep better. But I know this will improve.

It has taken me far to long to come back to the Ado-B12 and realize that the thing I have been most sensitive to, is most likely the thing I need the most. Refeeding symdrome, right? It just takes a while for it all to integrate in our heads. Mine, in particular, is quite thick. But there you have it. I had to reach a point of total exhaustion/weakness/tingling in my extremeties to come to this. I'm more than a little chagrinned.

In my defense, all along the doctors have been saying that my B12 levels are fine--or high. So much for whatever their test actually mean...

For the moment, everything is illuminated!

Best to you all.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Okay, just to update here. I'm pulsing the Transdermal Oils again, alternating with the enzymatic therapy MeB12. Along with this I have begun to titrate up the Adenosyl B12--up to 3,000mcg today and this is all clearly helping. In fact, it seemingly makes it easier to tolerate the molybdenum, so once again, everything is connected. The nights after the oils I sleep little; on alternate nights, I sleep better. But I know this will improve.

It has taken me far to long to come back to the Ado-B12 and realize that the thing I have been most sensitive to, is most likely the thing I need the most. Refeeding symdrome, right? It just takes a while for it all to integrate in our heads. Mine, in particular, is quite thick. But there you have it. I had to reach a point of total exhaustion/weakness/tingling in my extremeties to come to this. I'm more than a little chagrinned.

In my defense, all along the doctors have been saying that my B12 levels are fine--or high. So much for whatever their test actually mean...

For the moment, everything is illuminated!

Best to you all.
Glad you're back on the b12 and Ado @Kathevans . I wouldn't beat yourself up over having difficulty integrating it all. We're all just muddling through. Hopefully you'll be able to use the full doses soon...
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Thanks @Athene*. I feel certain that both the molybdenum and the Adenosyl B12 are lynchpins for me. But now that I've gone back on the B12s, my adrenals were over-stimulated and with not enough minerals around to use the B2 and thus recycle the B-12s (according to Greg!) my potassium need doubled to about 1800mg. And those symptoms returned--the low-potassium-heart -palpitations-at-night stuff. I was jarred out of a deep sleep last night by my pounding heart. So I need to get.more B2 on board to recycle the B12s and handle this, But not till I work with the molybdenum a bit more first--I'm comfortably at 75 mcg/day. For now I need to consolidate more potassium in dinner and the evening hours so this night time disturbance doesn't happen.

Did you find that the higher doses during the day were sufficient to resolve heart issues? I've been having coconut water and an evening dose of 270Mg K+, but have found that isn't enough. How much did you take with your evening meal? Trying to separate potassium and magnesium because they're antagonists complicates things a bit.

I'm feeling more steady and have so much more energy on the admittedly low dose of Adenosyl that I am feeling hopeful. I can see that it's a long (and winding!) road ahead. All my weak, lumpy, stiff muscles and sore joints are calling out for more and I'm trying to hold back a bit while I get other symptoms under control.

It's all a juggling act.

I hope you are doing well. You're a bit of a beacon for me...
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Actually, @Athene* , I see you responded to the above quite extensively: "You asked how do I take all that potassium? I take 600mg with each meal and then every so often throughout the day I'll take 3 or 4 of the gluconate 99mg tabs with a big glass of water. I can't use the gluconate powder because NOW foods say it's not certified gluten-free (possible contamination in factory). I'm coeliac (diagnosed by gut biopsy, 2010)." (From an old thread I can't seem to copy a link to but named 'Sudden shortness of breath...")

Sorry, my brain's a sieve!
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
No prob, @Kathevans By the way thanks for 'beacon' comment. Nice to think I might have some use after all these years in bed/on couch! Seriously though, about the potassium - one thing I've noticed is that the lower my cortisol got over the past few months when titrating down on the hydrocortisone, the lower my potassium needs were (it was a gradual lessening). I'm not sure that's a good thing at my stage of healing, though it might be okay in a couple of years, for example, when healing is (hopefully) done, or at least well on the way. I know it happens quicker for those who haven't been sick as long as some of us here (20+ years for me), and some folk came off potassium supplements much sooner. But I'm nowhere near fully healed yet.

I was down to 400mg potassium daily a couple of weeks ago and 200mg once or twice and at the same time I was becoming quite hypothyroid from the low cortisol. So without proper thyroid function I wasn't making FAD and was beginning to shut down. All old symptoms returning (scary). I did have all the other FAD co-factors/minerals etc: B2, iodine, selenium, molybdenum from food and later supplement, but t3 & t4 are a huge part of FAD. So, I've had to have complete rest with no more over ambitious walks and now adrenals are picking up a bit again and I'm making FAD/beginning to have energy again (with the result that I now need 1,200mg daily potassium). I also need to take 1/2 tsp of pink salt in water sipped over the day too, to help adrenals along (you will know whether or not to use salt based on your cardiac issues, but if your adrenals are struggling, you may need salt? It's just as important as potassium. Too much of one can floor the other...)

So when my cortisol picks up, my thyroid function picks up, I make FAD (making FAD is even more important than addressing other SNPs according to Greg), and I begin to generate energy. Then the potassium need comes. It's what Freddd always said too - when you get the methylation cycle going you need more potassium to keep the healing going. So maybe your potassium need increasing is a good sign? Greg has a different theory about potassium to do with adrenalin precursors and aldosterone dumping once b12 is introduced to a b12deficient body (that work-in-progress theory of his we tried to decipher before).

I don't mind taking 1,200mg potassium daily for now. I hope that when I'm healed I won't have to take any, except in food.

My adrenals are really holding me back, but I just have to be patient for quite a while more. Not easy when the sun is shining and everybody else is setting out for the day...

It would be so interesting to see how your adrenals are doing. Did you ever get around to the Adrenal Stress Index? I want to wait until I'm off hydrocortisone longer. I do hope I won't have to go back to using it. I don't like not being able to exercise...

Oh, by the way, I've been using choline for my PEMT for about 10 days now. It's choline bitartrate (Solgar choline/inositol 500mg daily) and it's really helping with oestrogen dominance symptoms and I find it helps in lots of other ways. Would that not be a safe one for you to take given the breast cancer history in your family that you mentioned on the choline thread? (I'm clueless about breast cancer so it's just me speculating, given how it's helping me to metabolise oestrogen...).

Having said that, here's a video provided by @ahmo from another thread that says it's Phosphatidyl Choline that we should be using (oil free version). Just when I thought I had it worked out...Thing is this stuff costs hundreds of pounds on Amazon!! (Will this ever get easier?)

But PC as you know is essential for us and I see immediate effects (even though my one may not be the best long term...*sigh*)

By the way again - when my cortisol went very low after a long walk one evening I was up peeing all night (4 times), so aldosterone went low. I needed to take salt to make it stop. Interesting isn't it? Makes me think your adrenals would possibly reveal something on testing?? (speculating again ;))
 
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Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I'm probably taking about 1800mg of potassium. Certainly more with the food I eat, the coconut juice and so on. This evening I took 1/2 rounded teaspoon--about 300mg in water an hour before I ate and another 300 in tablet form with my dinner. I'll take another 300 this evening and see how the night goes. Of course, if you drink that much, you're up at least 4 times just to pee! Btw, when you take it during the day, do you only take a dose when you feeI symptomatic? I tend to take it several times a day automatically, then at night if I need more. It's only now that my heart is waking me up at night that I'm beginning to take more in the evening.

My adrenals are really holding me back, but I just have to be patient for quite a while more. Not easy when the sun is shining and everybody else is setting out for the day...

I have no doubt the adrenal issues are there for me. But I haven't gotten back to the test. At this point it will have to wait till I'm back from that infamous trip which is bearing down on me in less than 2 weeks. I do use a lot of sea salt and consciously put 1/4 teaspoon in lemon water at least once or twice a day--along with the magnesium and vit C. I will be honest and say that going to this naturopath, as much as I like him, has been a big distraction--with him trying to direct me to do things I'm not so sure are a priority. The gut thing now seems like a bit of a boondoggle. It's taken a lot of time and energy, two things in short supply. Are you taking pantethine? I've read the adrenals love it, and the B-Minus has a lot in it. When I was taking at least 1/2 a B-Complex a day just a month or so ago, my levels were very high.

You're absolutely right about the choline--though I have to say I know nothing about phosphatidylcholine--unfortunately, after all the research I did on it, all I could do was recommend it to my sister (who has the BRCA gene). I found I was too sensitive to it.

Thanks so much for the link; I'll have a look at it, maybe later tonight when I take my bath.

I've had another exchange with Greg, who, as you say, has a constant emphasis on FAD, so I'm doing my best to achieve results by focussing on the molybdenum. It does still make me tired, just not as bad now that I'm getting a bit of Ado B12 and MeB12 into me. I think it's also making me break out into sweats, several times a day, sometimes associated with eating, sometimes not. We shall see how it goes. Greg would like me to work slowly toward a strong mineral base and I have kept my B2 low--only the 5mg in my B-complex (especially given the fact that my B2 levels were up to 400 and Greg said it was just floating around in me, unusable because I couldn't make FAD)--but I just don't want to keep stopping and starting the B-12. It feels like a must. I've just been too weak without it. It's scary.

And, I think to myself, what's wrong with a bit of retro-fitting? You were certainly on high doses of folate and B-12 when you began to shift toward Greg's approach.

Btw, errands and out this week, but only necessary stuff. No walks. I really miss exercise, too. I even love cleaning the house (or at any rate, don't mind it) and getting a good physical workout. Right now, my house is a mess...

We've just crossed messages. I may post a bit more when I have energy tomorrow. For now, I'm heading for my Epsom Salts bath, one of my favorite times of the day. Sleep tight!
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Btw, errands and out this week

That's good news. Slowly does it...(says she who constantly breaks this rule)

I think it's also making me break out into sweats, several times a day, s

Any idea why the molybdenum is so hard on your body and causing sweats @Kathevans? This happens to me from low cortisol. Is molybdenum known to be hard on adrenals? I've been thinking it's had no effect on me, but now I'm not so sure, from what you're experiencing. I know it can aid with detox of candida but as far as I know I don't have that anyway.

My adrenals are pretty dicey these days, just from giving up hydrocortisone so it could just be that causing the on-and-off low cortisol symptoms...
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Hi Athene* (I've messaged you in a 'Conversation) I'm still working with the Molybdenum and have made what I consider to be a lot of progress. I got the chelated Solagar form and am currently taking between 75 and 100mcg/day. I'm also taking very small doses of the Me B-12--2-4,000mcg/day and 1,500-3,000mcg of the Ado B12. It doesn't make me nearly as tired as it did initially, and like you, my candida levels are fairly low (+1 on a scale that goes up to +4; my big pathogens seem to be strep related). It does occasionally make me feel nauseated, though that passes. I have just begun to take it in the morning as I wake up a bit shaky and it definitely takes care of the adrenaline. Insofar as this might have to do directly with the adrenals, I'd have to say 'yes' it definitely affects them. I've also had a sore kidney/adrenal area on my right side, and occasional painful/catchy shooting pains, which I suspect is my adrenal gland. Only on the right, though. I'd like to work up to 150mcg a day at least.

I've had a couple of exchanges with Greg and I think you know he recommends extremely low doses of the Bs while you get your minerals replete. Greg is a pure scientist, I think, and he wants to add things methodically and see the reactions before moving on to the next thing. I’ve followed his advice till this time—after having a particularly scary low slump. I don’t want to go there again. I’ve found that what my husband says is true, “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they aren’t!” (I've probably said this before!) And for me, the Bs seem to be a necessity. I do find that I’m more sensitive to them, though, and I’ve limited them to 2-4,000mcg MeB12 and 1,500-3,000mcg AdoB12.

I’m still getting those weird symptoms, though, of muscle tightening in my face and headaches. I wish I could figure that out. Part of me thinks I just need to take much more—and I may have to be patient for that.

The limiting factor in addition to the fear I will never fill up my mineral tank, is the potassium need. I’ve shot up to 1,800-2,100/day and only today am switching everything around so I can have 600mg with my lunch and dinner and perhaps not have to stay up till 1 or 2 a.m. taking doses every two or three hours until my heart settles down for the night. (Not to mention the constant peeing) Now I have to find the time to guzzle my magnesium.

So up and down and up and…

Btw, I ran a two-day experiment this week where I used full squirts of the B-12 oil each day. I felt terrific, of course, all my symptoms abating till on the second night, horrible insomnia set in. I was up ALL NIGHT. :jaw-drop: This lasted into the second night, when in desperation I bit off 1/4 of an Ambien and slept a bit. Whether it was just heaps of adrenaline that I couldn’t satisfy with the amounts of molybdenum I was taking—or something else entirely, I don’t know. But I don’t want to test that again! I’m just beginning to feel more normal today.

I just want to feel as if I have some control before I get on a plane to France.

Hope all is well with you--and all of you who are hard at work on all these things.
 

Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Hi Athene* (I've messaged you in a 'Conversation) I'm still working with the Molybdenum and have made what I consider to be a lot of progress. I got the chelated Solagar form and am currently taking between 75 and 100mcg/day. I'm also taking very small doses of the Me B-12--2-4,000mcg/day and 1,500-3,000mcg of the Ado B12. It doesn't make me nearly as tired as it did initially, and like you, my candida levels are fairly low (+1 on a scale that goes up to +4; my big pathogens seem to be strep related). It does occasionally make me feel nauseated, though that passes. I have just begun to take it in the morning as I wake up a bit shaky and it definitely takes care of the adrenaline. Insofar as this might have to do directly with the adrenals, I'd have to say 'yes' it definitely affects them. I've also had a sore kidney/adrenal area on my right side, and occasional painful/catchy shooting pains, which I suspect is my adrenal gland. Only on the right, though. I'd like to work up to 150mcg a day at least.

I've had a couple of exchanges with Greg and I think you know he recommends extremely low doses of the Bs while you get your minerals replete. Greg is a pure scientist, I think, and he wants to add things methodically and see the reactions before moving on to the next thing. I’ve followed his advice till this time—after having a particularly scary low slump. I don’t want to go there again. I’ve found that what my husband says is true, “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they aren’t!” (I've probably said this before!) And for me, the Bs seem to be a necessity. I do find that I’m more sensitive to them, though, and I’ve limited them to 2-4,000mcg MeB12 and 1,500-3,000mcg AdoB12.

I’m still getting those weird symptoms, though, of muscle tightening in my face and headaches. I wish I could figure that out. Part of me thinks I just need to take much more—and I may have to be patient for that.

The limiting factor in addition to the fear I will never fill up my mineral tank, is the potassium need. I’ve shot up to 1,800-2,100/day and only today am switching everything around so I can have 600mg with my lunch and dinner and perhaps not have to stay up till 1 or 2 a.m. taking doses every two or three hours until my heart settles down for the night. (Not to mention the constant peeing) Now I have to find the time to guzzle my magnesium.

So up and down and up and…

Btw, I ran a two-day experiment this week where I used full squirts of the B-12 oil each day. I felt terrific, of course, all my symptoms abating till on the second night, horrible insomnia set in. I was up ALL NIGHT. :jaw-drop: This lasted into the second night, when in desperation I bit off 1/4 of an Ambien and slept a bit. Whether it was just heaps of adrenaline that I couldn’t satisfy with the amounts of molybdenum I was taking—or something else entirely, I don’t know. But I don’t want to test that again! I’m just beginning to feel more normal today.

I just want to feel as if I have some control before I get on a plane to France.

Hope all is well with you--and all of you who are hard at work on all these things.
Hi @Kathevans Thanks for msg. I just replied a few mins ago. It's funny, we're coming from opposite directions but will hopefully meet in the middle with good results!
What I mean is, I'm loaded up with enough b12 and 5MTHF for an elephant, but only now realising (from reading your experience mainly!) that I'm most likely low on minerals even though I've been supplementing a few of them by mouth for years (Greg knows this so he may have assumed I was doing ok on the minerals, but I did begin iodine again, small dose, and molybdenum, on his advice).
It seems that I'm low in molybdenum though and it's knocking me back (adrenal stress) when I take it, so I'm only now taking 1/4 of your dose, and I'm also having a huge response to transdermal magnesium (more adrenal distress!) even though I've been supplementing magnesium by mouth for 4 years (threonate then glycinate). I've been undiagnosed coeliac for decades so I'm lower in minerals than I thought and have poorer gut absorption than I thought.
I'm going to press on with minerals (including transdermal magnesium at lower dose for now) and investigate other minerals. I have a feeling magnesium is hugely important though because it helps to regulate copper and iron when it's replete and unless all these minerals are in balance we'll never make the elusive FAD...
Like you, my potassium need has 'shot up' too. If we go by @Freddd then it's a good sign and we're building new red blood cells again (hopefully).
Also, potassium is low in those who are magnesium deficient (I read that magnesium helps to keep potassium in the cell) as is vitamin D. So perhaps we have a way to go yet with magnesium? (I'm not sure how long you've been doing Epsom salt baths? I was wondering: how much do you use? Do you feel you're replete with magnesium now? Is your vitamin D good?). And I'm going to get copper/cerruloplasm/magnesium etc tested soon. I read that if you have copper 'toxicity' it may mean that it's high in the serum, but not bioavailable/getting to cells (a familiar story). Back to magnesium deficiency...