• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Reduced diversity and altered composition of the gut microbiome in individuals with ME/CFS

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Other things to think about: the outliers in the control group may have just done some exercise, unless they were told not to; if this study is repeated in those with severe ME there will most likely be no overlap (KDM found that his severely ill patients had higher levels of plasma LPS than AIDS patients).
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
That leads to an interesting question: if, as is possible from the results, one of the control group had a BMI of 33.3, can they really be said to be a ´healthy´ control? Does anyone know where the cut-off line tends to be in most studies?
 

Kyla

ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ
Messages
721
Location
Canada
That leads to an interesting question: if, as is possible from the results, one of the control group had a BMI of 33.3, can they really be said to be a ´healthy´ control? Does anyone know where the cut-off line tends to be in most studies?

I think they were likely trying to match the controls to the patients. ie - if they eliminated high BMI in controls they would have had to do so in patients as well. The range of BMIs looks similar between the two groups so I don't think this would be a big concern
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Well, (one more time) I´m not a statistician but it looks like it might explain some of the outliers in the control group. Both the level and the range are moderately (slightly?) increased in the control group, meaning that some of the control group may have been obese, whereas it is only possible for the patients to have been borderline obese (33.2 vs 30.4).
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
What if - and I know I´m getting into conspiracy-theory level stuff here - most of the ME patients took the lift but most of the controls went up three flights of stairs?
 

me/cfs 27931

Guest
Messages
1,294
Press release came out today:

Indicator of chronic fatigue syndrome found in gut bacteria
By Krishna Ramanujan

"Now, for the first time, Cornell researchers report they have identified biological markers of the disease in gut bacteria and inflammatory microbial agents in the blood.

In a study published June 23 in the journal Microbiome, the team describes how they correctly diagnosed myalgic encephalomyeletis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) in 83 percent of patients through stool samples and blood work, offering a noninvasive diagnosis and a step toward understanding the cause of the disease."


And this gem from senior author Maureen Hanson:

“Furthermore, our detection of a biological abnormality provides further evidence against the ridiculous concept that the disease is psychological in origin”.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/06/indicator-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-found-gut-bacteria
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
It´s not the first time, but I guess we can´t expect them to get that right.
 
Messages
93
From my perspective this is pretty big news. Especially when you consider the source (Cornell University) and the fact that it was funded by the NIH. I'm wondering if this information is going to be shared with the current larger NIH study.

Here is the article: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/06/indicator-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-found-gut-bacteria

A couple things I found interesting:

"In a study published June 23 in the journal Microbiome, the team describes how they correctly diagnosed myalgic encephalomyeletis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) in 83 percent of patients through stool samples and blood work, offering a noninvasive diagnosis and a step toward understanding the cause of the disease.

“Our work demonstrates that the gut bacterial microbiome in ME/CFS patients isn’t normal, perhaps leading to gastrointestinal and inflammatory symptoms in victims of the disease,

At the same time, the researchers discovered specific markers of inflammation in the blood, likely due to a leaky gut from intestinal problems that allow bacteria to enter the blood, Giloteaux said.

Bacteria in the blood will trigger an immune response, which could worsen symptoms."

@Hip I believe that this could back the research that you have found suggesting leaky gut may play a larger role than expected.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Biomarkers have been around a very very long time. This is not even the first time that gut bacteria markers have been found. This does however further validate earlier findings. It is but the beginning of process to develop a test.

I have not done a count, but the suspected biomarkers probably now number in the hundreds. We need them further investigated.

Diagnostic accuracy using other markers is now between 80% and 95% depending on the biomarker. They all still require further validation.
 

Comet

I'm Not Imaginary
Messages
693
Even if this study isn't perfect and needs replication, still seems like a big win for us. More research to be taken seriously and more researchers to be roped in.

Plus a great quote from Maureen Hanson: "Furthermore, our detection of a biological abnormality provides further evidence against the ridiculous concept that the disease is psychological in origin,”

"Ridiculous concept..." love it!
 

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
Overall, the diversity of types of bacteria was greatly reduced and there were fewer bacterial species known to be anti-inflammatory in ME/CFS patients compared with healthy people, an observation also seen in people with Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/06/indicator-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-found-gut-bacteria

Having been diagnosed and then un-diagnosed with chronic ulcerative colitis by two different GI specialists in the space of a month (3 years following post-viral ME onset), my "gut instinct" is that this research is very, very significant.

[My instinct for word play, however, is abominable.]
 

Marky90

Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance
Messages
1,253
Biomarkers have been around a very very long time. This is not even the first time that gut bacteria markers have been found. This does however further validate earlier findings. It is but the beginning of process to develop a test.

I have not done a count, but the suspected biomarkers probably now number in the hundreds. We need them further investigated.

Diagnostic accuracy using other markers is now between 80% and 95% depending on the biomarker. They all still require further validation.

It`s weird isn`t it. Seems like every paper concludes with "more research is needed, to replicate these findings", but very few wants to do it themselves.

We need the biological researchers to replicate like Wessely et. al :D

Well, replicate.
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
Important study building on Maes. Great to have from Hanson, and you've got to love that quote (damn right!). I can't help but think of this as a downstream effect, but I don't have as much evidence as I'd like back this up yet.

Let's hope it can be brought together with other findings. I'm sure Davis is aware.

Good stuff.


B
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
That leads to an interesting question: if, as is possible from the results, one of the control group had a BMI of 33.3, can they really be said to be a ´healthy´ control? Does anyone know where the cut-off line tends to be in most studies?

BMI can be a notoriously poor indicator of health, apart from in the sedentary. Many athletes are above 30 on the BMI due to muscle mass, and one would not say they are particularly unhealthy.

Just putting that out there.

B
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
I have to say I'm starting to like Hanson a lot. I can't judge the technical aspects of the study but the way her articles are written suggests a thoughtful and informed mind. The findings could be important and it's always nice to see other findings being (kind of) replicated. The proverbial cherry on top is the ridicule of the psychosocial approach. Ridicule is the only answer - they have nothing of substance and still cling to their ideas despite overwhelming evidence that they're wrong.