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researcher receives $1.5 million NIH grant to evaluate daily activity patterns and heart rate...

viggster

Senior Member
Messages
464
When you only get 5 slices ($5M) of budget and one whole slice ($1.5M is more than a slice) is going to go to something like this? It means there's that much less money available for other researchers. If on the other hand we had 500 slices ($500M)? well, ok, one slice ($1 - $1.5M) to help study management of the illness would be a-ok.
That's not how NIH funding works. They have not funded much ME/CFS research to date, true, but there is no limit of $5m a year. I'm pretty sure we're at the beginning of a big upswing in funding, and before an RFP is announced, creative people inside NIH are finding other ways to boost funding. (Like pointing IACFS/ME to a grant that can be used by young investigators to travel to their conference). The point is that it is not a zero sum game, and funding Frieberg here does not take away funding from other research.
 

Denise

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
"The participants will then be interviewed by a psychiatric nurse via the phone about other potentially important illness factors including major life events they have experienced over the study period, their physical and social functioning, and changes in their illness status..."

This sends up red flags. Why a psychiatric nurse? Why major life events - and why does he include major life events as potentially important illness factors? .

I wonder if asking about major life events during the study is a way to correlate higher heart rate with finding out one has won the lottery for example. In other words if a major life event during the study could account for increased heart rate at that time.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Lots of good things happening in the daily lives of pwME?

I suspect most major life events with us will be negative. Sure, some good will be interspersed, but most...?

What might psychiatrists do with predominately negative experiences correlated with heart activity?
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
That's not how NIH funding works. They have not funded much ME/CFS research to date, true, but there is no limit of $5m a year. I'm pretty sure we're at the beginning of a big upswing in funding, and before an RFP is announced, creative people inside NIH are finding other ways to boost funding. (Like pointing IACFS/ME to a grant that can be used by young investigators to travel to their conference). The point is that it is not a zero sum game, and funding Frieberg here does not take away funding from other research.

Lets hope so...
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
That's not how NIH funding works. They have not funded much ME/CFS research to date, true, but there is no limit of $5m a year. I'm pretty sure we're at the beginning of a big upswing in funding, and before an RFP is announced, creative people inside NIH are finding other ways to boost funding. (Like pointing IACFS/ME to a grant that can be used by young investigators to travel to their conference). The point is that it is not a zero sum game, and funding Frieberg here does not take away funding from other research.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Kyla

ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ
Messages
721
Location
Canada
Health Rising has a blog post about this now:
http://www.healthrising.org/forums/...n-autonomic-nervous-system-and-activity.4554/

Looks like maybe he interviewed Friedberg about it - its unclear, but he has details that weren't posted in that press release.

Anyways, after getting more details my personal opinion is ...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
study sounds a bit wishy-washy. could be (a lot) better. could be (a lot) worse.

I had originally assumed this would be more focused on using continuous heart-rate monitoring to stay below anaerobic threshold. that does not appear to be the case.
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
I personally think time, effort, energy and studies should be focused on:

- ME as one disease or separate entities
- biomarkers
- treatment intiatives

A massive influx of money, centers of excellence, and studying the severely ill will be the solution.

I want to see a serious investment that attracts top neuroimmunologists, immunologists, Endocrinologists and GI Specialists.....
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Friedberg is looking for easy ways to treat the fatigued, through low cost interventions such as behavioral therapies. Will he perform tilt table tests to the patients before monitoring their heart rates throughout the day and trying to find the areas that could be improved through therapies? Not likely.

Instead there will be attributions of increased heart rates to anxiety, depression or both. 1.5 millions and 2 years later, this is what we will read in a peer-reviewed journal.

Meanwhile, prof Ron Davis is still unfunded by NIH for seriously cutting edge ME research.
 
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Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
While I like the fact that funds are awarded for ME research, there is a long list of other bio research that I would rather receive $1.5 million.
I agree. I've worn a heart rate monitor for about 6 months off/on during the time I've had ME. This is not rocket science, by any means. This could be a High School science project. This is not worthy of a $1.5M NIH grant. I am very disappointed that it involves a psychologist and a psychiatrist nurse. We are loosing time as more ME people die.
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
Friedberg is looking for easy ways to treat the fatigued, through low cost interventions such as behavioral therapies. Will he perform tilt table tests to the patients before monitoring their heart rates throguhout the day and trying to find the areas that could be improved through therapies? Not likely.

Instead there will be attributions of increased heart rates to anxiety, depression or both. 1.5 millions and 2 years later, this is what we will read in a peer-reviewed journal.

Meanwhile, prof Ron Davis is still unfunded by NIH for seriously cutting edge ME research.
Why are we all putting up with this nonsense? I consider this to be a slap in the face. I don't care if I have to crawl from my car to the next ME protest, I will be there with my self inflatable mattress. Enough is Enough. We ALL need to show up to the next protest; we can no longer afford to be missing. Out of Sight = Out of Mind
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
Without a cohesive unit working on ALL areas, we are not going to solve this with these fragmented studies left right and centre. As I said last time, more grants for research is clearly a good thing and shows some change per se, but I would bet money that whatever findings are going to be found will not be able to be brought together in a cohesive and valuable way, with other markers missing. Exactly the same as findings from the last 30 years.

This is a multi systemic disease, it's needs to be treated and researched as such, under an organised team.

And enough with the self reporting already. I'm sick of this rubbish. The premise for this could actually be quite good (ecg, hrv etc) but it will not be due to reporting methods, non-objective measures etc etc.


B
 
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Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
Without a cohesive unit working on ALL areas, we are not going to solve this with these fragmented studies left right and centre. As I said last time, more grants for research is clearly a good thing and shows some change per se, but I would bet money that whatever findings are going to be found will not be able to be brought together in a cohesive and valuable way, with other markers missing. Exactly the same as findings from the last 30 years.

This is a multi systemic disease, it's needs to be treated and researched as such, under an organised team.

And enough with the self reporting already. I'm sick of this rubbish. The premise for this could actually be quite good (ecg, hrv etc) but it will not be due to reporting methods, non-objective measures etc etc.


B

Exactly, a highly coordinated team would be the best way to approach it.
I think each of us has one or more subtypes. For example, in time I may be able to treat one of my issues, but will need to wait for more research to find a cure for the others. Precision Medicine is even to loose of a term, maybe Complex Precision Medicine

GD :dog:
 

Groggy Doggy

Guest
Messages
1,130
That's not how NIH funding works. They have not funded much ME/CFS research to date, true, but there is no limit of $5m a year. I'm pretty sure we're at the beginning of a big upswing in funding, and before an RFP is announced, creative people inside NIH are finding other ways to boost funding. (Like pointing IACFS/ME to a grant that can be used by young investigators to travel to their conference). The point is that it is not a zero sum game, and funding Frieberg here does not take away funding from other research.
Thank you so much for your continued heroic efforts in steering the NIH and keeping us informed as we go. We would never have gotten this far without you. Any frustration I have with NIH funding, is no reflection on you. On the contrary, it makes me appreciate you even more, because I see what a challenging task it is to make progress. So thank you again :balloons::star:
 

viggster

Senior Member
Messages
464
Thank you so much for your continued heroic efforts in steering the NIH and keeping us informed as we go. We would never have gotten this far without you. Any frustration I have with NIH funding, is no reflection on you. On the contrary, it makes me appreciate you even more, because I see what a challenging task it is to make progress. So thank you again :balloons::star:
Thanks but I'm not doing much. The important thing is that we now have champions inside NIH who are trying to push various levers and buttons to shake money loose. Trying to build a new research program inside NIH after decades of inaction is a difficult task and Vicky Whittemore and a few others deserve unending praise for working for us. It's easy to think of NIH as monolithic and faceless, but in reality there are people who want to help us and they're trying their best. My hope is that more and more people inside will get recruited into the effort and the train will speed up. It will never get going fast enough. But there are encouraging signs. For instance: An NIAID scientist on the Trans-NIH Working Group has recently expressed a lot of sympathy & enthusiasm for trying to figure out ME. That's encouraging. We need many more to come aboard.
 

JayS

Senior Member
Messages
195
I have no problem believing that there are now people inside NIH who are sincere and want to help us. But studies like this are why I wouldn't support advocating for an RFA in the past if we had no idea how all this new money (great!) would actually be spent. I'm a little too cynical to believe that it would go where some of us want it to go (which is to say that there are probably some people who don't see this as a waste). True, Fred Friedberg is a long ways from Simon Wessely (and Dedra Buchwald, for that matter). But that doesn't mean he's ultimately all that helpful, either. A 'friendly' or 'white hat' guy who does a lot of work with 'coping strategies' and such is still a guy who's taking money that could go elsewhere and devoting it to coping strategies. Or trying to predict how crashes are induced by more discussions with more psychiatry professionals, with or without physical monitoring.

I wasn't quite well enough to finish up the survey or send a note to NIH. But I had mixed feelings about it in the first place. Remember, the CDC still uses their Wichita and Georgia cohorts to produce 'research' that they consider to be part of defining what 'CFS' is. (Like, you know, playing card games) I don't want to come off as overly paranoid, but after this much time...who cares. So let's say I have an idea about research--and I do--and I submit it to NIH. Since we know there are still people hostile to this disease there, what exactly would stop them from speaking to the CDC and potentially guiding them towards using their bogus cohorts to disprove, well, just about anything we think we know about this disease?

Does that sound so impossible? Does it sound so paranoid? The Nath study has something to do with "post-exertional malaise," does it not? Well...what exactly IS "post-exertional malaise?" Because the CDC says they can't define it. Right? Didn't Beth Unger communicate that exact idea at CFSAC not long ago? And who defines what the disease is, if not CDC?

Beyond that...I've also long had a concern about Fukuda being used in studies, which I might as well dump here also. Generally speaking, we, as a patient community, we'd prefer to see CCC/ICC cohorts, right? Okay, great. We don't even want to see Fukuda included, because even if that might not potentially water it down, it still gives it credibility it doesn't deserve. But what about the people at journals? If you're a journal editor, and you're submitted a paper that uses CCC/ICC but doesn't mention Fukuda, you're then going to publish a paper about 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' that doesn't even mention the CDC's gold standard? I know it's been done, but pretty rarely, correct? I'm hopeful this is a barrier that's going to slowly come down, as well, but I know there have been studies proposed that aimed to use a stricter cohort exclusively, but the group was told that if Fukuda were not among the criteria, that the paper would be rejected. Because the CDC is the authority, and how would it look if you're publishing a paper that directly contradicts the world's leading medical authority on something that they themselves created.

I trust that the Nath study will have something to say about PEM; but if it does, if it can, it will be describing a sign that is authoritatively said to be something that is as of yet undefinable. I truly hope that isn't a problem, but is it nuts to think that there might be some conflict that could develop there?

I'm not speaking up very often these days, and I'm not marching outside HHS or NIH with handheld signs advocating anarchy, either. But no matter how many studies we have demonstrating the effects of PEM, how much does it matter when the CDC says that they essentially don't even know what it is, and refuse to use 2-day CPET? The IOM report had good info, sure, but how much does it matter, really? Cochrane (>IOM) just published another positive review of GET in CFS, again using the same 5 out of 8 Oxford cohort studies, so what does it matter that the P2P said Oxford should be retired? Cochrane sure isn't listening (and, in spite of massive efforts, PACE still stands). And they carry more weight than pretty much anything we have.

I've long thought that money is less important than attitude and direction. I have zero direct knowledge of what people at NIH think of this disease, outside of whispers (which are little more than rumors), but actions speak. The highest numbers that have been called for would be worse than useless if not directed properly. Friedberg's the head of one of the largest advocacy organizations, so why would they look at funding him as anything but something the patient community would applaud?

I realize this has nothing to do with Vicky Whittemore, who I would like to accept is doing her very best, a lot of thankless work on our behalf. I'm just not sure that even strong allies are yet equipped to deal with the state of play, which so far has not changed much; and it's hard to see how it would have even if the IOM report had been perfect, which it was not.