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Action for ME Tosses Sir Simon Overboard

Mrs Sowester

Senior Member
Messages
1,055
@Scarecrow I was doing a horticulture degree when I got ill and everybody who was anybody knew everybody else in the same field (hort. joke there). And specialists all networked as much as possible. Now horticulture & botany academics are a fairly small group - but bet my zoplicone stash on the academic psych ME specialist community being pretty small and tight too.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
I think a little more than that. A quick Google shows them both at meetings of the MRC CFS/ME Expert Group, eg. here in 2008: https://www.mrc.ac.uk/documents/pdf/cfsme-expert-group-minutes-1st-meeting/
Sorry. I was being obscure and a wee bit facetious by the Christmas card comment. The point I was making is that of course they communicate with each and share similar views on ME/CFS.

Remember that the CFS/ME Expert Group (which eventually led to the formation of the CMRC) also included biomedical researchers. (edit: not to forget Charles Shepherd, either!)
 
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Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
@Scarecrow I was doing a horticulture degree when I got ill and everybody who was anybody knew everybody else in the same field (hort. joke there). And specialists all networked as much as possible. Now horticulture & botany academics are a fairly small group - but bet my zoplicone stash on the academic psych ME specialist community being pretty small and tight too.
I appreciate that. I wasn't arguing otherwise.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
(and SMILE if it's still happening)

According to the ISRCTN Registry SMILE has been completed, apparently some time ago, as the entry's Last Edited date is 11/04/2014 (d/m/y). I'm surprised it hasn't been published yet.

The [Lightening Process] course is three sessions on three consecutive days. Each session is 3 hours 45 minutes long.

Group sessions include four to five young people between 12 – 18 years of age who live within the region covered by the CFS/ME service. During the group, children and young people will have a theory session and a practical session.The LPP will then arrange two follow-up phone calls with the young person and parents within 2 weeks of the course and then about 6-8 weeks later.

What are the possible benefits and risks of participating?
There are no specific benefits for children participating in this study. We do not think there are any side effects of the interventions but because the Lightning Process has not been tested before, we will be monitoring all interventions and closely following up all young people who take part.

If this ever sees the light of day, we will want to look at the harms data very carefully.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
According to the ISRCTN Registry SMILE has been completed, apparently some time ago, as the entry's Last Edited date is 11/04/2014 (d/m/y). I'm surprised it hasn't been published yet.



If this ever sees the light of day, we will want to look at the harms data very carefully.
Be interesting to see a "study" on the Lightning Process that isn't allowed to say exactly what happens on the LP. Aren't participants all sworn to secrecy on pain of having their entrails removed, and we aren't allowed to know that they're made to stand on paper circles chanting and being brainwashed in spite of whatever their bodies are telling them?

First question when any results are published should be "yes, but what exactly is the LP, what did they do? What happened on the theory session and the practical session?" You'd expect the charletans peddling the LP to keep the details to themselves, but if they try to get away with that ludicrous veil of secrecy in what is claimed to be a scientific report, the authors should at least be subjected to a barrage of vexatious FOI requests, which will result in either the nonsense that is the LP being revealled in all its glorious detail to all, or if the FOI requests are denied, the authors' claims to being taken seriously as scientists looking as ridiculous as the PACE authors'.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
According to the ISRCTN Registry SMILE has been completed, apparently some time ago, as the entry's Last Edited date is 11/04/2014 (d/m/y). I'm surprised it hasn't been published yet.



If this ever sees the light of day, we will want to look at the harms data very carefully.

They published a feasibility study where they had done 56 patients and I think this may have lead to outcome switching.

Discussed here :
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...cess-trial-feasibility-study-published.26870/

In the protocol http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879423/ it says
Feasibility study first randomisation: 29 September 2010.

Full trial randomisation after conversion to full trial: 19 September 2012

The protocol appears to be published after the start of the trial on 2013 Dec 26. .

The registration suggests that recruitment finished on the 31/03/2013 and the protocol talks of a 12 month followup so that would make approx April 2014 as having collected the data. Given these days it is best practice to publish results within a year of the end of the trial this means they are quite late. However, they managed to published results of a focus group associated with the trial http://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2015/10/09/archdischild-2015-308831.long in october 2015.

My guess is the results are poor despite them 'optimising' the outcomes after their feasibility study.

Or perhaps Crawley is too busy accusing patients of harassment and promoting a survey where anyone who is tired is said to have ME to the press.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
Be interesting to see a "study" on the Lightning Process that isn't allowed to say exactly what happens on the LP.

It's not too early to ask Crawley about these issues via FOIA or any other process, since their SMILE feasibility study was published at the end of 2013. We must've discussed this study when it was released but I don't recall it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235039/

The study has two arms. One is "Specialist Medical Care" which offers the usual not-much-treatment besides CBT and GET. "Children and their families were offered a variety of treatment options [9] centred around graded activity." There is no mention of actual medical care being offered to these young patients.

The other arm is SMC plus "Lightening Process". This study doesn't seem to have any treatment results, but it does discuss that patients in this arm found a rather large contradiction between the concept of gradually increasing activity as promoted by SMC and the exhortations of LP that they should resume all activities immediately and control their symptoms via LP mind magic.

Crawley et al said:
Conflict between interventions
Four parents and children randomized to the specialist medical care and Lightning Process arm described differences between the two interventions in terms of the language and approach used, which meant that the approaches conflicted with each other.

P9 [Parent 9]: ‘It has been a bit confusing, I have to say, because obviously we have got the [Lightning Process practitioners] approach, where, “Right, finally, done this, now you don’t need to do the pacing; you can just go back to school full time.” I think, the physical side of things, YP9 [Young Person 9] has had to build herself up more rather than just suddenly go back and do that’. (Post intervention)

The research team discussed the issue of conflict with the CFS/ME team and the Lightning Process practitioners, who agreed to respect the different approaches and support parents and children. Parents and children on subsequent courses did not report conflict. Children appeared to cope with differences between the two approaches by using best practice from both to fit with their current health needs.

Haha, this a great trial design. Researchers actually have no idea what "treatment" patients in the SMC + LP cohort actually received. There is every possibility that patients in this group may have simply ignored the LP "treatments" and only did "SMC" treatment, which is also subject to huge variation from patient to patient. Is this something that can be overcome with proper statistical analysis and large enough cohorts?

As one might expect, there is little discussion of harms:

Serious adverse events
Serious adverse events were reported by clinicians from the clinical team or members of the research team to the principle investigator and the sponsor within 24 hours. All serious adverse events were reviewed by the research and development committee.
----------------

Two serious adverse events were reported during this part of the study. Both concerned admissions to hospital, one of a child and one of a parent. Neither was related to their involvement in the SMILE study. Both were reported as per routine procedures and no action was necessary by the study team.

Even though they admit that "there are currently no reported studies investigating the effectiveness or possible side effects of LP in children" they don't seem to have a protocol to look for and record harms that are less than "serious adverse events" requiring hospital admission. I suspect that researchers who design drug trials would find this woefully inadequate.

Even though they never analyzed any data regarding treatment outcomes, presumably they collected some. We need to see it so others can analyze it.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
I took it to mean that the were talking about the any PACE participants who might be concerned about anonymised data being released:

Thanks for the clarification. I think what you're saying is most likely correct. On first read I interpreted it differently.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Thanks for the clarification. I think what you're saying is most likely correct. On first read I interpreted it differently.

On a second read I was less sure of myself. I've got no inside knowledge on what they meant by that, but given how QMUL have been trying to present patients expressing concern as harassment I'd be cautious about unnecessary contact with the precious little things.
 
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Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
One can imagine that even with loose criteria EC failed to produce anything like what she was looking for data wise so now she can try even looser criteria via questionnaire's and see if she can't manufacture the numbers that prove she is on the right path with her pet treatment modality.

As far as the Lightening Process goes. Now there I think she's possibly a little brave there. That sounds to me like litigation waiting to happen.

And as mentioned, she's sat through many sessions of presentations showing biological mechanisms. Here she must be heavily invested in the mind curing the body--and I've recently seen an article (don't know about the research) claiming just that. There is a lot of confusion reigning over just how much a mind can do. Honestly, if I could cure myself with my mind I'd have done it by now and would be on the road doing mind spoon bending tricks. Since she herself is not at all ill with ME it's easy to believe others just need to 'really want' to be well. Bollocks of course.

Like others EC is embedded in a group of peers who need CBT etc to be the answer. Money depends on it. If we get enough momentum going though, the next generation coming up behind the leaders might hesitate to move forward researching a treatment that has a rather unpleasant stench attached to it.

But even outside of their little group some of their ideas are pretty media-hyped. And although maybe updated the ideas aren't new either. Minds bending spoons, mind-body healing, controlling body functions is totally '70's era a lot of it coming out of Russia and India.