Cutler Mercury Chelation Poll

[Mary]

@caledonia The best information about Lipid Replacement Therapy with PC (Phosphatidyl Choline) is at http://www.medicalinsider.com/ - go under "Liver Function Toxicity & Detoxification" - then click on #4 "Detoxification Protocols" - then scroll down on the "PHOSPHOLIPID THERAPY" link. Sorry, no easy way to post a direct link to this subsection section. But great information!

My brother is MTHFR C677T +/+ and an avid reef fishing enthusiast who has eaten hundreds of pounds of seafood per year. He is showing all the signs and symptoms of mercury poisoning - volatile emotions, unsteady gait and facial expressions, itching skin, depression, etc.

I am wonder the best way to treat organic mercury toxicity? Look forward to reading people's experiences...

You might want to check out this test: https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/mercury-testing/testing/mercury-tri-test

depending on results, they have various products for detoxing, and practitioners who order the test also can sell the products. I can't vouch for any of the products as I ended up not needing them, but a chiropractor I was dealing with who ordered the test for me told me that this product was very good: https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/solutions/imd-intestinal-cleanse - it's pricey too, of course

 

[xrunner]

She said methylation and PC therapy should dislodge metals as well and is safer than the cutler protocol.

My personal experience, based on actual tests (run by Acumen) with Phospholipid replacement/exhange (did it both iv and oral) and methylation was that they did not detoxify mercury or lead, on the contrary they messed me up for later developing MCS.
On the other hand, on the Cutler protocol there were some improvements.

PS: I personally would NOT recommend anybody with heavy metals toxicity to try any kind of lipid replacement therapy!

 

[xrunner]

Methylation will dislodge metals from the tissues

My mito tests did not show any kind of heavy metals detox effect.

 

[Johnmac]

I'm the converse to your example, below. I was doing Cutler chelation & was literally bedridden by thiol reactions. I began the Simplified Methylation Protocol, & those symptoms vanished. I was very sick, but became well & able to continue chelation.

Cutler was of some benefit to me, & I still do it after 4 years. (Now on 225 mg ALA, + DMSA.) But it wasn't the big solution I thought it might be. Remember that (i) ALA is a potent antioxidant, & can make you feel good whether you have Hg or not; (ii) Cutler recommends a bunch of support supps + adrenal support where needed (hydrocortisone). I was given quite a lift by those things, which I erroneously put down to chelation at the time.

However I have two friends who have been just about brought back from the dead by the Cutler protocol. (One has retired his bipolar diagnosis; the other his chronic fatigue, ulcers & acute sinus problems.)

The first friend was wiped out by chelation, & was saved when he added a version of the Freddd methylation protocol. The other doesn't know anything about methylation.

With Cutler, I think the degree of improvement depends on the degree to which mercury underlies your illnesses.

I don't think there is a 'right order' in which you should address methylation & chelation.

The effect of methyl-folate on my thiol problems was unique to me, so far as I know: I haven't heard of anyone else having that response.

Your friend's DMSA/circulating mercury hypothesis may well be correct for him - DMSA does do that - but it may not be replicated in others. For example I'm on DMSA today, & am still having a good old crash on the Freddd Protocol.

I found two opinions on methylation's relationship to mercury chelation (Cutler plan frequent dose chelation), from the forum on Onibasu.com.

Somewhere in this there might be a little gem of info to help someone?

(they aren't my comments; I haven't done methylation and can't comment on Cutler chelation's effect on M.E.)

One person said that adding chelation (using DMSA on frequent dose protocol per Cutler's book) allowed him to use methylation supplements without getting side effects from the increased methylation. He said the increased methylation might have been increasing loose mercury in the body, and adding DMSA supplements reduced this problem because DMSA reduced the loose mercury that had been stirred up by the methylation supplements:

"The difference between taking DMSA while taking methylation supps and not taking DMSA is like night and day. Without DMSA - foggy, fluey, tired: with DMSA - clear head, energy, more normal."

Another person commented that ideally, people should do things in a certain order: remove amalgam fillings first, then chelate to reduce body burden of mercury, then start supplements to increase methylation.

 

[caledonia]

@Johnmac The thiol reaction = a CBS issue. Mercury makes CBS express. Rich Vank has said it's possible that if you do the simplified protocol for awhile it will help CBS.

It's possible that mercury caused permanent damage , so getting it out may not be totally helpful. But it does seem like in that case, methylation would help counteract the damage.

There are many chemicals that will cause similar damage as mercury. I think sauna in addition to methylation would be best to get those out. I wouldn't try sauna unless your adrenals are up to par.

 

[xrunner]

Hi @Johnmac
I my case I went through the Cutler protocol after some success with Lyme treatment. That allowed me to regain a lot of strength. Otherwise I would not have been able to go through chelation, as I used to be in a very poor state of health.

After that, I started with amalgam removal whilst in parallel I restarted the Simplified Methylation Protocol (the methylation I had tried a few years earlier was similar to fred's but too aggressive anf didn't work well for me) just because my glutathione was lowish. I also addressed some mineral deficiencies esp. selenium.

It was only after that and once I removed my amalgams that I started chelation. I had my first improvement after a few days on DMSA (I only mention improvements that remain). The improvements I had later on by also introducing ALA were not as big as the initial one.

So I think you're absolutely right, its' very much an individual thing and certainly it helps if you can address, beyond chelation, any other factor (methylation, hormones, gut etc) that may add to your health and strength.

 

[Johnmac]

@caledonia , I began the protocol about a month after Rich died. Was real sorry not to have got to know him.

What in the protocol might have helped with CBS, do you know?

Not sure I see the logic in leaving Hg in place. Even if it has caused permanent damage, it could always cause more...?

Must get round to saunas...

Thanks, @xrunner, glad the Cutler protocol was of use to you. I'm a modest gainer, but others have seen great results.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I've done 20 rounds on both DMSA/DMPS and ALA and I have a moderate improvement. But because the protocol is quite intense, I figured that it would be better to fix methylation first before continuing.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia
What in the protocol might have helped with CBS, do you know?

I think Rich hypothesized that CBS could be fixed gradually over time, but didn't really give a mechanism. Knowing what I know now, it would either have to increasing molybdenum or removing mercury. The Yasko multi (both the old and new versions) have moly in them. Raising glutathione and possibly also the addition of other antioxidants in the multi could remove mercury.

Not sure I see the logic in leaving Hg in place. Even if it has caused permanent damage, it could always cause more...?

If you leave it in place, it will continue to cause damage. Mercury affects a multitude of enzymes in the body.

Must get round to saunas...

Make sure your adrenals are up to snuff so that you tolerate heat and sweating before doing this. I tried this early on in my illness, and had issues - heart palpitations, panic attack, even with replacing electrolytes. I won't try it again until my adrenals are much improved.

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks Caledonia. I'm removing lots of Hg (Cutler), so see how that goes.

I'll give the sauna a careful try. I don't know if my adrenals are up to it, but I'm sure it won't take long to find out.

 

[AdamSee]

I'm 85 rounds in (12.5mg avg) - I rely upon ALA weekly to keep me going. It allows me to concentrate, think clearly and euphoria inducing - but the effects don't happen every time and nearly always feel short tempered the day coming off.

Is it actually removing metals or just the antioxidant effect? I'm not sure, plus it's a pretty intense program so makes it hard to do without having some downsides.

But hands down, it has had the biggest impact making me feel better. I just wish I knew why that was.

 

[Johnmac]

My guess is that the elevations you experience are the antioxidant effect. It's a brilliant antioxidant. I get the same.

But it is likely removing metals too. I think there's reasonable science saying that.

Short-tempered the day after is pretty common IMO.

Can you separate out the short-term (on-round) gains from the long-run gains? I.e. to what extent & in what ways do you feel/function better between rounds than you did before chelation began?

 

[AdamSee]

My guess is...

It's good to hear we share the same responses. ALA can be a miracle supplement but it seems very dependent upon genetics and getting the right dose.

I have improved a lot (I voted major improvement) in between rounds. My clarity of thought has increased, but it has been far from linear or just a case of taking it consistently - it is a lot of work.

For me, it has been an enabler to give energy to do other things. Combined with changes in lifestyle and other practices (emotional release, meditation, stretching, small bits of exercise and having time to reflect). It has really helped on the road to healing.

 

[Aerose91]

Make sure your adrenals are up to snuff so that you tolerate heat and sweating before doing this. I tried this early on in my illness, and had issues - heart palpitations, panic attack, even with replacing electrolytes. I won't try it again until my adrenals are much improved.

I actually had the opposite reaction. When I had just adrenal fatigue (and I was bad) I could tolerate saunas to a certain degree. Once I got ME I could no longer, they would crash me and i would never recover from it. Still to this day I can't be in the direct sun, a problem I never had with AF

 

[caledonia]

I actually had the opposite reaction. When I had just adrenal fatigue (and I was bad) I could tolerate saunas to a certain degree. Once I got ME I could no longer, they would crash me and i would never recover from it. Still to this day I can't be in the direct sun, a problem I never had with AF

I can't be in the direct sun on a warm day either or I'm in danger of getting overheated and fainting within a few minutes.

I've improved some over time. I can tolerate temperatures in the 80's (Fahreneheit) better, but anything over 90 is dangerous.

It could also be the thyroid. Both the thyroid and adrenals are involved in temperature regulation.

Or maybe neurally mediated hypotension?

 

[Aerose91]

I can't be in the direct sun on a warm day either or I'm in danger of getting overheated and fainting within a few minutes.

I've improved some over time. I can tolerate temperatures in the 80's (Fahreneheit) better, but anything over 90 is dangerous.

It could also be the thyroid. Both the thyroid and adrenals are involved in temperature regulation.

Or maybe neurally mediated hypotension?

I am curious to look into this further to find out why people like us have so much trouble with the sun. For me any direct sunlight over 71 degrees and I'm screwed. It will cause a big crash. If temps are in the high 70's, weather I'm in the sun or not it's very problematic. If I had to guess I'd say it's some sort of dysautonomia thing but that is just a general statement.

 

[Johnmac]

From http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/comment-page-8/#comment-375572 for anyone interested:

The monovalent cobalt atom in methyl B12 is readily oxidized by various compounds – for instance nitrous oxide. This oxidation inactivates methioninsyntase (MS) which has then to be formed de novo. Mercury, as we know, does oxidize many compounds, logically also cobalt. lf this hypothesis (which is about to be verified), is confirmed, it means that mercury can block the methylation cycle and thus induce a functional B12-deficiency (folates are not altered). This in turn is one explanation of why symptoms of mercury overload and vitamin B12-deficiency may be identical!

There is also a second possible interaction between vitamin B12, and mercury. Mercury has indeed been shown to impair the Transport of vitamin B12 over the blood-brain barrier which results in a low CSF/serum concentration ratio of the vitamin. Low CSF levels of vitamin B12 (and high CSF-homocysteine levels) have been observed in fibromyalgia (chronic fatigue syndrome), MS and in dementia. High doses of vitamin B12, that overcome the block to some extent, has had sometimes stunning results in these conditions.

 

[caledonia]

From http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/comment-page-8/#comment-375572 for anyone interested:

The monovalent cobalt atom in methyl B12 is readily oxidized by various compounds – for instance nitrous oxide. This oxidation inactivates methioninsyntase (MS) which has then to be formed de novo. Mercury, as we know, does oxidize many compounds, logically also cobalt. lf this hypothesis (which is about to be verified), is confirmed, it means that mercury can block the methylation cycle and thus induce a functional B12-deficiency (folates are not altered). This in turn is one explanation of why symptoms of mercury overload and vitamin B12-deficiency may be identical!

There is also a second possible interaction between vitamin B12, and mercury. Mercury has indeed been shown to impair the Transport of vitamin B12 over the blood-brain barrier which results in a low CSF/serum concentration ratio of the vitamin. Low CSF levels of vitamin B12 (and high CSF-homocysteine levels) have been observed in fibromyalgia (chronic fatigue syndrome), MS and in dementia. High doses of vitamin B12, that overcome the block to some extent, has had sometimes stunning results in these conditions.

If you look at some methylation cycle diagrams, they show both mercury and lead inhibiting at MTR/MTRR (B12).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/91534330/Yasko-Methylation-Cycle

Basically B12 and mercury are two sides of the same coin. You can add the one or take away the other (or both) and get improvement.

 

[pemone]

I'm 85 rounds in (12.5mg avg) - I rely upon ALA weekly to keep me going. It allows me to concentrate, think clearly and euphoria inducing - but the effects don't happen every time and nearly always feel short tempered the day coming off.

Is it actually removing metals or just the antioxidant effect? I'm not sure, plus it's a pretty intense program so makes it hard to do without having some downsides.

But hands down, it has had the biggest impact making me feel better. I just wish I knew why that was.

The fact that you have no thiol reactions and actually feel better during chelation strongly suggests to me that you are not suffering effects of mercury. Your hypothesis that this might be a euphoric reaction to an antioxidant might have merit.

 

[pemone]

I'm the converse to your example, below. I was doing Cutler chelation & was literally bedridden by thiol reactions. I began the Simplified Methylation Protocol, & those symptoms vanished. I was very sick, but became well & able to continue chelation.

The fact that you have thiol reactions (I do too) really does suggest some involvement of mercury doesn't it?

Did the extent of the thiol reactions decrease over time?

In my case I have a sulfur food sensitivity as well, which Cutler would explain as single thiols that do not bind tightly to mercury, but do move it around. I have tested both my sulfite and sulfate after eating sulfur foods, and neither one gets high. So I do not believe my genetic defects around these conversions is involved here.

Can someone explain why methylation defects would affect thiol reactions?

I went through the whole analysis of my genome, and my impression after three different practitioners is that none of this is ready for prime time. Practitioners look at these defects and then make wild guesses about how to fix them, with no accurate measurements to determine if the correction is overdose or underdose. It all looks like scam medicine to me, intent on hooking the patient into long courses of very expensive medical care and supplements.

I was taking 40 pills a day to correct all of my defects and these made me intensely ILL. All of my pituitary hormones went sky high, and my body simply went into a very unhealthy ramping up of my metabolism that left me feeling no better at all. I had an allopath take me off all supplements cold turkey, and over a six month period my body gradually ramped down its hormone levels. I definitely feel better without supplements and without treating my methylation defects.