Changes in face

[Valentijn]

For those suffering, and know how awful this can be, contact him, especially with altered facial features

No thanks. The treatment is simply too bizarre and there is no sensible explanation for how a misaligned jaw can result in neurological, muscular, GI, and immune symptoms throughout the entire body. I'm pretty sure there's also a complete lack of research validating the practitioner's claims.

I'm also not sure how jaw realignment would help the many ME patients who have active bacterial or viral infections, as well as various elevated inflammatory markers. It really does just sound like a novel form of quackery, and we can find plenty of that elsewhere already, and probably cheaper as well.

Best of luck to your daughter.

 

[Jammy88]

Just want to reinforce, before my daughter was diagnosed with ME the main thing I noticed was a change in facial features, she obviously was focusing on her myriad of symptoms at the time that made her feel so unwell. Every doctor I mentioned it too, and we saw loads, ignored this. We now know her jaw was severly misaligned and this was significantly impacting on her cranial and spinal position and hence her symptoms. With the correct treatment, repositioning of her jaw. Dr Amir Putney, her spine and cranium are now well on way to being in the correct place and all symptoms gone, she looks great and guess what, facial features back to normal, has a great jawline and gets physically stronger with each treatment

For those suffering, and know how awful this can be, contact him, especially with altered facial features

@Mari66 , this sounds very interesting although I believe it doesn't fit my case - unknown viral infection.
By the way, did your daughter have fat loss in face?

 

[Hip]

The treatment is simply too bizarre and there is no sensible explanation for how a misaligned jaw can result in neurological, muscular, GI, and immune symptoms throughout the entire body.

One idea I had that might explain Dr Amir's treatment successes is that the patients he treats have illnesses caused by inflammation in the trigeminal nerve, leading to the sickness behavior response in the brain, a response which can cause many of the symptoms of ME/CFS. By his jaw bone manipulations, Dr Amir may be alleviating the inflammation in the trigeminal nerve, which then results in improvements or remission from ME/CFS, or from a ME/CFS-like illness.

Both the vagus nerve and the trigeminal nerve are able to activate the sickness response in the brain when these nerves encounter inflammation or infection, so if there were inflammation in or around the trigeminal nerve, you might expect ME/CFS or an ME/CFS-like illness to appear. The sickness behavior response produces many symptoms which are found in ME/CFS (a list of sickness behavior symptoms is given in this post).

As is well-known, Michael VanElzakker's vagus nerve infection theory of ME/CFS attempts to explain ME/CFS in terms of the activation of sickness behavior.

(Some people like @Ian developed ME/CFS from a jaw bone infection, which probably caused ME/CFS via a sickness behavior mechanism triggered by the trigeminal nerve which sensed the inflammation arising from this infection.)



How could a misaligned jaw lead to or exacerbate inflammation in the trigeminal nerve and trigeminal ganglion?

Well it just so happens that the trigeminal nerve innervates much of the jaw, and in particular, the trigeminal ganglion is located near the jaw bone joint (the temporomandibular joint). Thus if there were jaw bone misalignment and/or an extreme tightness of the muscles around the temporomandibular joint (this is called temporomandibular joint dysfunction), this could conceivably impinge on the trigeminal ganglion and nerve, leading to or exacerbating inflammation in or around the nerve, thereby triggering sickness behavior.

The trigeminal nerve ganglion is located near the jaw
bone joint (temporomandibular joint): might a misaligned
jaw impinge on this ganglion, causing inflammation in
the nerve, triggering sickness behavior?

Even if the ME/CFS was triggered by an infection, I would not have thought this rules out the possibility the jaw misalignment / temporomandibular joint dysfunction may be playing a role in maintaining the disease. It could be that the infection is underpinning some trigeminal nerve inflammation, but the jaw misalignment is exacerbating this inflammation, perhaps via the very tight jaw muscles reducing the blood supply to the nerve.

Infections can definitely cause trigeminal nerve inflammation. For example, in Lyme disease, trigeminal neuralgia (facial pain arising from inflammation in the trigeminal nerve) can occur.

In fact it says in this article that:

Although the majority of affected patients report knee joint pain, a significant number also report temporo-mandibular joint (TMJ) symptoms. The TMJ is the fourth most commonly affected joint in Lyme disease.

Source: Temporal Mandibular Joint Disorder Due to Lyme Disease

And of course temporo-mandibular joint dysfunction is also a common comorbidity in ME/CFS, and like any comorbidity, may well be contributing to the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. So theoretically anything that can alleviate the TMJ dysfunction, such as the jaw re-alignment treatment that Dr Amir has been applying, may potentially be beneficial for ME/CFS.

Or another possibility to consider is that temporomandibular joint dysfunction might be mimicking the symptoms of ME/CFS. Indeed, Dr Amir actually published a short response in the British Medical Journal suggesting that temporomandibular joint dysfunction should be considered as a possible differential diagnosis in those believed to have ME/CFS:

Temporomandibular Joint dysfunction as a Differential Diagnosis in ME/CFS patients

 

[Mari66]

My daughter lost weight overall when she became unwell and her face did look pinched, but the shape had altered as a result of her jaw being in the wrong place, which obviously would affect the position of her cranium and hence where her cranium sits on her spine. If you think about it, all the blood supply, nervous system etc runs through this area, so it's no wonder the symptoms of ME are what they are!!! ( as above)

Not sure how an unknown viral infection could cause this!!

Look at the website, the opening page describes this much better than I can, and the blog shows all the latest research that challenges current thinking

Wish you all the best, it's worth ruling out!!!

 

[Mari66]

http://dramir.com/blog/archives/695...algic-Encephalomyelitis-and-Fibromyalgia.html

Discovered how to upload link!!! Hope this is helpful!

 

[Hip]

Not sure how an unknown viral infection could cause this!!

The viruses linked to ME/CFS are not really unknown viruses, they are common viruses like Epstein-Barr virus (the glandular fever / mononucleosis virus) and enterovirus. But because these viruses are common in the general population, what needs to be explained is why these viruses only cause ME/CFS in some people, but not others.

One simple explanation may be that these viruses only cause ME/CFS when they infect the brain or nervous system, and certainly in brain autopsies of ME/CFS patients, enterovirus infections have been found in the brain tissues.

There are also some clearcut cases of ME/CFS that are known with certainty to be caused by viruses and bacteria: parvovirus B19 is known to cause ME/CFS, as is infection with the bacterium Coxiella burnetii. These are both treatable infections, and when they are treated, the ME/CFS symptoms clear up. So there is no doubt that infections can cause ME/CFS.



Many cases of ME/CFS appear soon after a viral infection, with the symptoms appearing withins a few days of catching the virus in some instances. In these cases, the link to a virus is very clearcut.

What I would like to know is whether Dr Amir has had any success in treating patients with a clearcut viral trigger of their ME/CFS illness, and all the classic symptoms of ME/CFS (the symptoms defined by the Canadian Consensus Definition of ME/CFS).

This would help determine whether Dr Amir's treatments work for ordinary ME/CFS patients.

Unfortunately, Dr Amir received a bit of an unfriendly response from some people on this forum, and so disappeared before entering into a dialogue and answering these sort of questions. Dr Amir also has strong alternative health-type views, seemingly being against pharmaceutical intervention, and viewing pharmaceutical intervention as a scam. These strong views unfortunately do not help to create dialogue either.

 

[Daffodil]

this reminds me of when many with with CFS (me included), thought they had chiari malformation!

 

[Valentijn]

this reminds me of when many with with CFS (me included), thought they had chiari malformation!

Yes, another fad based on some doctor thinking every patient is a nail best hit by their own specialty. And some flimsy explanation conjured out of thin air to attempt to explain why their treatment is the One True Cure, despite a lack of any scientific evidence.

Sounds like CBT in a nutshell, really.

 

[Mari66]

Guess having seen the physical change this treatment causes it is easier for me to acknowledge this as can see the physical change and the resultant dramatic reduction in the symptoms. As a clinician this makes so much more sense than all the unproved theories over the years. If you look at the latest blog on the website you will see further evidence of the findings of this clinician. Having worked with hundreds of clinicians over the years Dr Amir's work has reminded me that the focus of health should be on the anatomy and physiology of the body whereas unfortunately healthcare now leans towards lots of theories and medication with limited benefits. He does not claim that he can cure all those with CFS/ME and will immediately tell those he can't treat. However they are very few and far between and for those who meet him and sit in his waiting room all the evidence is there!!!

My daughter had many blood tests largely driven by me and my clinical knowledge and EBV was found but as most clinicians know this is found in most blood results and because nothing else was found the consultant she was seeing believed this must be the underlying cause. I am so grateful I didn't agree to the medications that were suggested at the time as aware the side effects would have taken us down a very different route!!!!

I wish you all the best and hope you all have a speedy recovery.

In the meantime I am continuing to try to influence the NHS to recognise this clinicians findings

 

[ercinese84]

Hi jammy88,

im italian like you and i have symptoms like yours.

What you think to talk privately? i m new on this site and i don t know how to send pvt messages :-(

 

[Mari66]

Hi again

Just wondered if anyone has tried Dr Amir. Met so many more of his patients with the same story as my daughter with equal success. Would hate to think of anyone not at least trying this. The latest updates on his blog are really interesting also and well worth a read.

 

[Hip]

Just wondered if anyone has tried Dr Amir. Met so many more of his patients with the same story as my daughter with equal success. Would hate to think of anyone not at least trying this. The latest updates on his blog are really interesting also and well worth a read.

Would you be able to post up any details of these patients you met, and that Dr Amir treated? I think what people will find convincing is a series of case reports.

 

[Mari66]

Please look at dramir.com and the blog and testomonials, it's all there

All the best

 

[roller]

the misaligned jaw i have too, the changes in facial features as well as the 'missing collagen' (thats how i call it).

i agree that the misalignment and tensions are caused by the vagus nerve, which may be our ambulance for infections.
some ppl seem to have a stronger vagus involvement than others.

the unaligned jaw you can much improve with self-hypnosis, relaxation techniques. test it for your facial muscles.
sounds really weird for some problem, that caused massive challenges and not to overcome problems in my dental treatment years ago - but so easy things can be.

when waking up at night, my face was like cemented in a scream (its still so a bit).

i think traditionally, the eaten away face has been linked to tuberculosis.

 

[msf]

My daughter lost weight overall when she became unwell and her face did look pinched, but the shape had altered as a result of her jaw being in the wrong place, which obviously would affect the position of her cranium and hence where her cranium sits on her spine. If you think about it, all the blood supply, nervous system etc runs through this area, so it's no wonder the symptoms of ME are what they are!!! ( as above)

Not sure how an unknown viral infection could cause this!!

How about a known bacterial infection? As Hip pointed out, TMD is a symptom of Lyme Disease

 

[roller]

or tetanus?

Is known to cause muscle tensions, jaw lock, irritability, difficulty swallowing, drooling.

Unclear to me, whether it causes fever when exotoxins are released.

 

[Mari66]

Seen many more patients in Putney who have been diagnosed with CFS/ME and who have severe TMD. Dr Amir is putting their jaw back where it should be, this is putting cranium and spine in correct place and the body responds very quickly by restoring health. Please look into this - just trying to get as many accessing this as possible
Also trying to get the NHS to understand this.

A couple of doctors in America have found the same thing so hopefully will get out soon

 

[Violeta]

The facial changes might be partly due to loss of fat but also loss of muscle. I think the adrenals are severely affected, and that causes muscle wasting and loss of weight in the face, neck, forearms, and calves. Adrenal fatigue is often related to dark circles under the eyes, too, which is why many people with allergies have them and why they show up in some people when they don't get enough sleep.

The licorice root is a really good idea. I am seeing improvement in the way I feel after just two days, but my face is pretty old so it might take some time to show up there. I am going to start the coconut water, too, making sure you get enough salt with meals. Maybe cooking with coconut milk would help add some easy to digest calories, I just started that yesterday.

 

[roller]

myasthenia gravis would explain it best to me.
with some strong nerves involvement, for all i understand.

 

[Jammy88]

Hello guys,

I just wanted to pick this thread up again, since my main issue at the moment - concerning my face - is dark circles under eyes and collagen loss (i.e. tear through) . Are there any remedies? My face is still not the one I was used to. And people often say I'm tired, even when I'm actually feeling ok.
I don't like this disease but I'm glad I have a mild form.

Thank you in advance.