• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Which came first; the Fatty Acid or the Bacteria?

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Bacon, roasted pork belly, and lard are all surely gifts from the hands of God. :D

If someone told me I could never have another drop of alcohol again, I'd be like Okay, too bad, but I can live with it.

If someone told me I could never have chocolate again it would be a big struggle to accept, but I could live with it.

But if someone told me I could never have bacon again, I would TEAR THEM DOWN with my bare hands. Maybe also use my teeth, depending on my mood at the time.

As dear ol' Dad used to say before Sunday breakfast with bacon: The pig is a noble beast. :D
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
@ppodhajski I am at the point of supplementing with 5-Htp just to get a BM.

I take whey protein powder daily, which makes me feel very well - emotionally and hormonally flat, but with enough energy to go thru my days without crashing. BUT it antagonizes tryptophan and worsens my naturally bad IBS-C. So I just started taking 25mg 5-Htp and am seeing results, shy results, but they are there.
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@ppodhajski I am at the point of supplementing with 5-Htp just to get a BM.

I take whey protein powder daily, which makes me feel very well - emotionally and hormonally flat, but with enough energy to go thru my days without crashing. BUT it antagonizes tryptophan and worsens my naturally bad IBS-C. So I just started taking 25mg 5-Htp and am seeing results, shy results, but they are there.

Glad you are seeing results with that. There are other things I think you can try. Flaxseed meal is one, or flaxseed oil, and lower the amount of Omega 6 in your diet. I would not suggest you take B2 since it will stimulate degradation of the little serotonin it seems you have. You might look at high tryptophan foods as well and but only after high carb meals. That combo seems to raise serotonin.

I am wondering what your MAOA SNP for this is: rs909525
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Thanks, Ppodhajski. I am following you and appreciate you. I have been taking a lot of probiotics in the hopes of crowding out some Candida, 4+ Enterobacter cloacae and other imbalances seen on the DD CDA test. back in early June. I was also low on e. coli 1+ and had NG on Enterococcus spp.

I have been thinking about ordering Mutaflor for the e coli and Symbioflor for the lacking enterococcus. But who knows what the flora balance is now.

So, I am very interested in your first post in this thread. I will be more careful of my diet especially in regard to fish oil and omega 6.

I am so glad to see you back. You have stimulating ideas.
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
I avoid ground flax seeds which I used to add to my fruit due to unbearable joint pain.

So this is interesting and I see now IBS might have more to do with the serotonin receptors and transporters than it does with the levels of serotonin so lets check those. You have enough serotonin but it seems your receptors are not able to use it for some reason.

I guess you had bad luck with the flaxseed since it increases serotonin and you have an issue clearing it. All this makes me think that you might try FMN (B2) after all? Do you have MTHFR SNPs? It seems that B2 deficiency is also related to normocytic anemia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normocytic_anemia
But there are other causes as well so this is tricky. B2 might actually make you more constipated but I do not think so since SSRIs are used for IBS-C as well.
http://www.healio.com/gastroenterol...6-8515-c7a0ed098293}/what-is-the-role-of-ssri

Random question: Do you get migraines or really bad headaches?

It seems caffine increases serotonin receptor sensitivity, which makes sense. :)

Can you do a search for serotonin in promethease and tell me if anything interesting pops up?

Also search for 5HT (receptor) and SLC6A4 (serotonin solute transporter) sort by frequency and let me know if anything catches your eye. I am going to guess here that you have short form 5HT receptors and not many rare SLC6A4 genes.

THIS IS GOOD STUFF!
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
So this is interesting and I see now IBS might have more to do with the serotonin receptors and transporters than it does with the levels of serotonin so lets check those. You have enough serotonin but it seems your receptors are not able to use it for some reason.
Once I started a thread for oxytocin receptors. Could they be related to serotonin receptors?
you might try FMN (B2) after all?
I am desperate to try it, but last time I imported supplements I chosed one for DH, so had to postpone this one for me.
Do you have MTHFR SNPs?
MTHFR 03 P39P rs2066470 A AG +/-
MTHFR A1298C rs1801131 G GG +/+
MTHFR A1572G rs17367504 G GG +/+

MTHFR G1793A (R594Q) rs2274976 T CT +/-
MTHFR rs13306560 T CT +/-
MTHFR rs1476413 T CT +/-
MTHFR rs17037390 A AA +/+
MTHFR rs4846048 G AG +/-
MTHFR rs4846049 T TT +/+

It seems that B2 deficiency is also related to normocytic anemia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normocytic_anemia
But there are other causes as well so this is tricky.
The anemia was induced by zinc + glutamine supplementation - I run out of copper.
Do you get migraines or really bad headaches?
I did have them for 10 years - estrogenic ones. They disappeared when I went gluten free.
It seems caffine increases serotonin receptor sensitivity, which makes sense.
Excellent, a couple of months ago I restarted drinking coffee in the morning and feeling well on it despite my several +/-CYP and +/+ for coffee specifically. However, I take my coffee with chocolate whey powder.
Can you do a search for serotonin in promethease and tell me if anything interesting pops up?

Also search for 5HT (receptor) and SLC6A4 (serotonin solute transporter) sort by frequency and let me know if anything catches your eye. I am going to guess here that you have short form 5HT receptors and not many rare SLC6A4 genes.
Will do that tomorrow, I am heading to bed now :sleep:
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
So this is interesting and I see now IBS might have more to do with the serotonin receptors and transporters than it does with the levels of serotonin so lets check those. You have enough serotonin but it seems your receptors are not able to use it for some reason.

I guess you had bad luck with the flaxseed since it increases serotonin and you have an issue clearing it. All this makes me think that you might try FMN (B2) after all? Do you have MTHFR SNPs? It seems that B2 deficiency is also related to normocytic anemia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normocytic_anemia
But there are other causes as well so this is tricky. B2 might actually make you more constipated but I do not think so since SSRIs are used for IBS-C as well.
http://www.healio.com/gastroenterology/curbside-consultation/{14477a97-aec3-41f6-8515-c7a0ed098293}/what-is-the-role-of-ssri

Random question: Do you get migraines or really bad headaches?

It seems caffine increases serotonin receptor sensitivity, which makes sense. :)

Can you do a search for serotonin in promethease and tell me if anything interesting pops up?

Also search for 5HT (receptor) and SLC6A4 (serotonin solute transporter) sort by frequency and let me know if anything catches your eye. I am going to guess here that you have short form 5HT receptors and not many rare SLC6A4 genes.

THIS IS GOOD STUFF!
Wow, Ppodhajski. This inspires me to get off my butt and tap into Prometheus. A big project and I'm not sure I am up for it but will give it my best.
I do well on flaxseed. I had no idea that it increases serotonin. I love and feel the need of chocolate. And caffeine although I have CYP1A2 ++ and probably should not be drinking it.
As I remember it, I have similar snps to you although I am not sure what yours are anymore.
Thanks for all the info.
Oci
++: COMT V158M, COMT H62H,VDR Taq, BHMT-02, BHMT-08, +-: MTHFR C677T +/-, MAO-A R297R, ACAT1-02, MTRR A66G, MTRR A664A, CBS A360A,
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
After a year and a half of my body rejecting coconut oil, it's back in love. In the last weeks I've just shifted from tallow to coconut oil.:woot: No more rendering fat.:thumbsup: And because resuming seeds and nuts, Omega 6's, which my body had craved for antioxidant or something else concerning peroxynitrite, increased my weight, I found a probiotic said to enhance fat metabolism. I'd been considering poo transplant, but way too hard to come by. So I researched and found only 1 thing with the right probies. They aren't the same strain as those cited in studies, but are advertised to do the same, and my body has been very enthusiastic about them. And some new antioxidants have decreased the need for nut/seed.

@ppodhajski, thanks so much for your continuing participation here. And thanks for revealing your Aspergers.:hug:
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
I just want to add this for now regarding the CYP1a2 SNP, when it processes things like caffeine and other xenobiotics it seems to raise glutamate levels. Caffeine does that on its own. This might help constipation because of the excitatory actions of glutamate. So this gene might actually help relieve IBS-C

Even more interesting is that glutathione is a reservoir for neuronal glutamate .
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@ppodhajski Can I ask what specific kind of oils/fats you started eating (and what kind you stopped eating) that brought about your improvement, mentioned in the first post in this thread?

And I'm wondering if someone with IBS-C, instead if IBS-D like you had, would instead use different oils/fats for their own situation? (speculation welcome!)

Please keep up the info stream; I've picked up some clues from this thread that might relate to my IBS-C, that I haven't run into in my other reading yet.
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@ppodhajski Can I ask what specific kind of oils/fats you started eating (and what kind you stopped eating) that brought about your improvement, mentioned in the first post in this thread?

And I'm wondering if someone with IBS-C, instead if IBS-D like you had, would instead use different oils/fats for their own situation? (speculation welcome!)

Please keep up the info stream; I've picked up some clues from this thread that might relate to my IBS-C, that I haven't run into in my other reading yet.

I eat low fat now since I found out I seem to be more sensitive to both. But I kind of notice Omega 3 speeds me up and Omega 6 slows me down. But that might be different for people with different serotonin receptor and transport genetics. But one of the symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome is D so...

I think Omega 3 makes the transport or receptors more sensitive.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Please keep up the info stream; I've picked up some clues from this thread that might relate to my IBS-C, that I haven't run into in my other reading yet.
Coincidentally it wasn't until last week that I decided to take 5-Htp for my constipation, and it is helping :woot:
I am taking tiny doses b/c I had a serotonin syndrome from it last year, but decided to try it since I have just replenished with B2 (+/+MAO-A). Apparently C. butyricum antagonizes serotonin o_O Also being +/+MTHFR 1298 wasn't of any help to me in that front.

Next thing I want to research is why my food supply apparently has lower levels of Tryptophan than elsewhere (perhaps because dairy is adulterated with urea, hydrogen peroxide, bleach and whatnot?:depressed:)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I will scream this from the rooftops until people hear me on this one. Taking probiotics is probably a dead end for any kind of lasting treatment.
I find some probiotics to be modestly helpful for my GI problems. I have a complete lack of bidifobacterium, which probably is not a good thing. And probiotics are also a pretty standard addition to the treatment of anyone taking antibiotics to treat bacterial infections (Lyme & Bartonella in my case).

Perhaps it would clarify what you are talking about treating. Gut problems? ME? Something else entirely?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150827130139.htm
Fish oil-diet benefits may be mediated by gut microbes
I'm afraid the abstract and other portions of this study are a bit misleading. They make a big deal out of some minor differences at week 5 out of 12, but there no significant differences at week 12.

Additionally they seem to have failed to either test for or report upon gut bacteria prior to starting the diets, and are again giving odd time points, which is likely to indicate that they are trying to display the data most supportive of their claims, while discarding contrary data. This data can be viewed in Supplement 1 (S1).

And as has been remarked upon by others, mice are not people. In some regards they can be useful for making comparisons, primarily involving the immune system if I recall correctly. But I would not expect their gut bacteria or dietary reactions to have sufficient similarity to humans. Humans have evolved to eat animal protein and the animal fat which accompanies it. The standard diet of a mouse in the wild is going to be grains, seeds, and nuts. They do not eat fish or pigs.

And with that very basic problem, it is unlikely that this study is of relevance to humans. Perhaps someone will investigate further in humans, but until then your conclusions regarding the study are premature and unwarranted.
If you never heard of it cured in a day maybe I am on to something? I understand the doubt but I am asking that you look at the science I am tagging my posts with.
The science you rely on usually does not say what you think it says. There are free classes available which can help in understanding research, such as are offered by Coursera. And if you are "on to something" I suggest you find a way to publish it instead of making unfounded statements to a lot of sick people, claiming that you supposedly have the ability to cure them.

If you detect animosity it is because we have been subjected to those sorts of claims dozens of times in the past. They usually fail to understand what ME is, and offer all sorts of baseless pseudoscientific claims to speculate about how they might cure us. Except they fail to make it clear that they are speculating, and offer their hypotheses as if they are firmly founded in scientific literature.
I am looking at the personal genetics and showing the personal genetics. I am looking at different peoples genetics.
I am showing how we can all look at our personal genome and based on that change our diet and use vitamin cofactors to create a PERSONAL treatment. I am doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you think I am doing.
I feel obliged to clarify for those who have not been following your posts in the SNP subforum: your understanding of SNPs, genetics, and related issues is minimal. You are very frequently wrong in your various claims regarding that subject matter.

I agree that genomics is an interesting and potentially useful approach to take, but it must be done carefully and scientifically. We cannot guess that SNPs are "expressing" in some manner contrary to what the research says, nor even guess that they might be doing something and act based on that as if it were fact. Yet this is what you have repeatedly done.
Oh, So how is that working for you? From what I read from your other posts you still seem to have health issues. Sorry to hear that.
This sort of sarcasm and patient-blaming are entirely inappropriate, and make you look very insecure regarding your hypothesis. Different things work for different people, especially if they have entirely different diagnoses. Pointing out that someone with a complex and currently incurable neurological, immunological, and muscular disease is not yet cured does not reflect some failure on their part, nor does it demonstrate any superiority of your hypothesis.
I am cured.
Of what, exactly?
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Also search for 5HT (receptor) and SLC6A4 (serotonin solute transporter) sort by frequency and let me know if anything catches your eye. I am going to guess here that you have short form 5HT receptors and not many rare SLC6A4 genes.
Nothing caught my eye with SLC6A4

as for 5HT
You have two long form 5-HTTLPR. You likely have two long-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region).
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Nothing caught my eye with SLC6A4

as for 5HT

You have two long form 5-HTTLPR. You likely have two long-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region).

Those are the long form transporter genes which make you more sensitive to serotonin. There is a bit on the long form here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_transporter

And sorry, I asked you for the wrong thing to find the serotonin receptors. Search for HTR, sort by frequency and tell me the genes you see under 20%. I do not need the SNPS, just the genes.