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Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
There are many variables that can cause the same symptoms since we have three factors at play, not including diet. That is why I think any one protocol will not work for everyone. And I do not think that epinephrine is at play, rather it is norepinepherine (NE).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10866698
However, marked reductions in Artirial Pressure, leading to orthostatic intolerance, are associated with inadequate increases in NE in these individuals.

So if we look at a table of the three combinations:

OI.png


At the top of the list we have low NE release but high uptake and there fore there is very little signal getting through to the nerves. So when you stand your body is like "wha.......?", It's a little slow to react.

On the upper end, there is was too much NE and there for when you satnd your body is like "OH MY GOD HE IS STANDING!"

This also will depend on diet and cofactors. The more amino acid precursors you eat that make NE, the more NE you will make. And being low is a cofactor like FAD (B2) will slow MAOA and MAOB and therefor you will have more NE hanging around.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Hi Mario,

Thanks so much for the post. I've gone through the entire thread ( more than once) with much interest.

I am currently on a Freddd type protocol, with which I had huge success when I started a few years ago. About one year ago things changed. Along with some syptoms returning, I noticed my need for potassium dropped off to zero, which implied to me whatever was working with Freddd's protocol had stopped working. My symptoms include fatigue and OI (POTS).

Four days ago I started choline and inositol, while I waited the NAG and TUDCA I ordered to show up. Yesterday, I had symptoms of potassium deficiency which cleared after K supplementation. This is good news, I think! It appears I may have run short of choline and thanks to this thread I was encouraged to take a substantial amount ( 700 mg/day ).

I'm starting the TUDCA and NAG tonight. The only element I don't have in your protocol is resveratrol. I'll keep this thread posted with my results.

Thanks again.
 
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mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@skwag

Good to know, Thanks. :thumbsup:

I am currently on a Freddd type protocol, with which I had huge success when I started a few years ago. About one year ago things changed. Along with some syptoms returning, I noticed my need for potassium dropped off to zero, which implied to me whatever was working with Freddd's protocol had stopped working. My symptoms include fatigue and OI (POTS).

Recall what i discuss in the first post of the Thread.

My theory is that this is the problem behind the Methylation Support Regimen that was proposed by Fredd / Rich Van Konynenburg. They dealt with one aspect of ER Stress only (namely Methylation problems and Increased Homocysteine which causes ER Stress). But if you have more than one Stressor going around then you will not have a full recovery.

So this happened to you because as you age you handle ER Stress less efficiently. The time has come therefore to use more weapons against it.


Four days ago I started choline and inositol, while I waited the NAG and TUDCA I ordered to show up.

<SNIP>
.......
I'm starting the TUDCA and NAG tonight. The only element I don't have in your protocol is resveratrol. I'll keep this thread posted with my results.

I would suggest that you start slow


Unfortunately i forgot to discuss this in the beginning of the thread that while being in this protocol i had days where i felt as if i was about to get sick. It is like my immune system was being re-programmed (?)

So if you had what Freddd discussed as being sick in the beginning (i think that Rich Konynenburg mentioned this as well in his methylation protocol) you will get exactly that with this protocol and some more.


So you could add NAG -just one tablet of 700 mg- on the first day then work your way to up to 3 tablets per day. Then you can add TUDCA (one tablet) and then gradually add one more tablet for a total of 500 mg.

I do not know if everyone will get these "protocol startup symptoms" but you have to be aware for this possibility. Make also sure that you avoid the things discussed.

I also saw you are considering starting Miyarisan. Please be aware that Butyrate lowers TMAO levels and TMAO is good for proper Protein Folding (not discussed in the original post). So try not to mix protocols...

You can also try Alpha GPC instead of Choline bitartate. Probably it has a better and quicker positive effect.

Good Luck to you

 
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mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
That is great @Ema

Please be aware that the protocol needs some experimentation and also you will have to avoid the things discussed at the first post.

Using TUDCA is one way to go against ER Stress, just remember the "ER Stress bucket" discussed at the first post of this thread. This means that you may need more than one supplements (e.g Resveratrol, NAG, Selenium) that help proper Protein folding to control ER Stress. In a nutshell :

-Manage methylation (MTHFR, CBS, etc)
-Take Choline/Inositol and see how you feel. Probably Alpha GPC is better instead of Choline Bitartate.
-Try a mix of Resveratrol, Selenium/P5P, Taurine, NAG, Curcumin, Vitamin D3. Take a note of your symptoms as you try the combinations. These compounds induce HSP70 and/or aid proper Protein Folding
-Do not take Miyarisan as it lowers TMAO. TMAO is a chaperone (and a very potent one) which aids in proper Protein Folding
-Use Vitamin C and/or high dose Metafolin (e.g 2000 mcg ) to increase/replenish BH4 levels (if you have any SNPs affecting Tetrahydrobiopterin)


You should have the first results within 10 days or so. My full recovery took 2 months.

Good Luck to you too and FWIW your avatar always puts a smile in my face :)
 
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Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
That is great @Ema

Please be aware that the protocol needs some experimentation and also you will have to avoid the things discussed at the first post.

Using TUDCA is one way to go against ER Stress, just remember the "ER Stress bucket" discussed at the first post of this thread. This means that you may need more than one supplements (e.g Resveratrol, NAG, Selenium) that help proper Protein folding to control ER Stress. In a nutshell :

-Manage methylation (MTHFR, CBS, etc)
-Take Choline/Inositol and see how you feel. Probably Alpha GPC is better instead of Choline Bitartate.
-Try a mix of Resveratrol, Selenium/P5P, Taurine, NAG, Curcumin, Vitamin D3. Take a note of your symptoms as you try the combinations. These compounds induce HSP70 and/or aid proper Protein Folding
-Do not take Miyarisan as it lowers TMAO. TMAO is a chaperone (and a very potent one) which aids in proper Protein Folding
-Use Vitamin C and/or high dose Metafolin (e.g 2000 mcg ) to increase/replenish BH4 levels (if you have any SNPs affecting Tetrahydrobiopterin)


You should have the first results within 10 days or so. My full recovery took 2 months.

Good Luck to you too and FWIW your avatar always puts a smile in my face :)
I was too brief!

I already take choline, selenium, D3 and a B complex. I think I even have some NAG around here somewhere I can add too. Resveratrol is not good for me.

My probiotic has some Miyarisan so I will switch back to one that doesn't.

I also take around 10g of Vit C a day mixed into my sugar free lemonade so I should be good there too.

So we'll see!

(And my real life version of my avatar makes me smile every day too! Thanks for the compliment. If you want to see 19 pages of pictures of them, check out the New Puppy thread in the Community Lounge. :D)
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@skwag

Unfortunately i forgot to discuss this in the beginning of the thread that while being in this protocol i had days where i felt as if i was about to get sick. It is like my immune system was being re-programmed (?)

So if you had what Freddd discussed as being sick in the beginning (i think that Rich Konynenburg mentioned this as well in his methylation protocol) you will get exactly that with this protocol and some more.


So you could add NAG -just one tablet of 700 mg- on the first day then work your way to up to 3 tablets per day. Then you can add TUDCA (one tablet) and then gradually add one more tablet for a total of 500 mg.

I do not know if everyone will get these "protocol startup symptoms" but you have to be aware for this possibility. Make also sure that you avoid the things discussed.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with start up symptoms and take their appearance as a great sign. It is interesting that you bring up the feeling that you are about to get sick. Along with muscle twitches, I take this as a sign of low potassium. For me one of the main components of the feeling "I'm about to get sick" is the feeling that I have a fever, that my face is hot, along with a bit of a headache. But when I check my temperature it is normal. After 200-300 mg of potassium and 30 minutes, those symptoms vanish.

So this happened to you because as you age you handle ER Stress less efficiently. The time has come therefore to use more weapons against it.

Actually, my relapse was probably brought about by at least a few of these factors that took place a year ago.
1) a month or so of increased physical activity
2) a fall which resulted in a good sized laceration
3) The DTaP vaccine I got in the emergency room
4) The antibiotics I took the following week
5) Additional emotional stress shortly afterwards

Another factor which I hadn't considered until reading this thread: For a couple weeks after the fall, I decided to try supplementing about 2 tablespoons/day of gelatin powder. During this period my symptoms were worsening so I ended all experimental supplements and went back to my normal protocol. I'm not sure whether or not gelatin would have same effect as whey in regards to the misfolded protein hypothesis. Any thoughts?
 
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Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,386
Location
Southern California
@skwag - gelatin is high in glycine. When I first took one tablespoon of gelatin at night for sleep (due to the glycine content), I had a very strong detox reaction. Glycine is used in phase II liver detox - so it's possible your worsening symptoms were detoxing. http://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.html

After persevering somehow (not sure how! :confused:) with the gelatin I was able to start tolerating it and now take plain glycine at night for sleep, which was never possible before. Also, my detoxing in general seems to have abated - I'm guessing my toxic load is lower and my detox pathways are working better - maybe ... I never know for sure what's going on!
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@skwag @Mary

I believe that the reason was the fact that Gelatin has very high Protein content (86 out of 100 grams) :


Screen Shot 2015-08-26 at 23.41.40.png




It is exactly the same reason for which i advise against Whey Protein. Too much protein is not good for us (my theory).
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@skwag @Mary

I believe that the reason was the fact that Gelatin has very high Protein content (86 out of 100 grams) :

It is exactly the same reason for which i advise against Whey Protein. Too much protein is not good for us (my theory).

I agree with your protein theory as well, but just for those people are sensitive to high catecholamines, which is probably most people with autoimmune, CFS and FM.
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Gelatin, being high in protein, provides the raw materials (amino acids) to make the monoamines (Serotonin, Dopamine, Epinepherine)

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/28/6/638.short
The elevation of brain tyrosine (by injection of the amino acid or consumption of a single 40% protein meal) accelerates brain catecholamine synthesis, as estimated by measuring brain dopa accumulation after decarboxylase inhibition, or brain catecholamine accumulation after inhibition of monoamine oxidase. These observations suggest that serotonin- and catecholamine-containing brain neurons are normally under specific dietary control.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Gelatin, being high in protein, provides the raw materials (amino acids) to make the monoamines (Serotonin, Dopamine, Epinepherine)

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/28/6/638.short
The elevation of brain tyrosine (by injection of the amino acid or consumption of a single 40% protein meal) accelerates brain catecholamine synthesis, as estimated by measuring brain dopa accumulation after decarboxylase inhibition, or brain catecholamine accumulation after inhibition of monoamine oxidase. These observations suggest that serotonin- and catecholamine-containing brain neurons are normally under specific dietary control.

I see, so this probably means that people with CFS should stay away from L-Tyrosine right?

If this is the case then i could look at my log file (450 days worth of data) and see if L-tyrosine created problems.
 
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ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
I see, so this probably means that people with CFS should stay away from L-Tyrosine right?

If this is the case then i could look at my log file (450 days woth of data) and see if L-tyrosine created problems.

I don't know, I was just bringing it up because you were talking about the protein how you avoid it.
But, my theory is that the only thing we should be taking is the vitamin cofactors. That and balancing your diet according to your genetics. I think if you focus on the very specific vitamins you need, and the form of the vitamins that you need, you will have no side effects and see very quick results.
So I would never take any supplemental amino acids or any thing that is a product of an enzymatic reaction.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@ppodhajski

OK, i will have a look at L-Tyrosine then, we may find something.

The reason for staying away from Protein is probably because of Phenylalanine ; I know that i have SNPs that point to a BH4 deficiency and other member forums have that problem too.

I actually induced a Sensorineural-Hearing Loss (SSHL) when i avoided all animal Protein for 20 days and then the day that i ate meat -about 1.5 hour after- i lost my hearing on the right ear for around 12 hours. I wasn't taking TUDCA at the time.

Also, pehaps it makes sense to avoid too much Protein : Although i am not a Biologist, i was thinking that if we have some sort of Protein Misfolding Disease then it makes sense not to burden your body with Proteins. Perhaps this is overly simplistic but it's just a thought.

So I would never take any supplemental amino acids or any thing that is a product of an enzymatic reaction.

Can you give some examples ?
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@Ema @skwag @Gondwanaland

Please consider taking Inositol along with Choline. Currently i take a total of 600 mg Alpha GPC and 1 gram of Inositol per day. I just ordered bulk Inositol powder!

Inositol could be very important for us and will be added to the protocol at the beginning of the thread.


See here (although the study is not for Humans)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16041130


Effects of N-glycosylation and inositol on the ER stress response in yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
Uchimura S1, Sugiyama M, Nikawa J.
Author information

Abstract
IRE1 and HAC1 are essential for the unfolded protein response in the endoplasmic reticulum (ER). IRE1- and HAC1-disruptants require high concentrations of inositol for its normal growth. The ALG6, ALG8, and ALG10 genes encode the glucosyltransferases necessary for the completion of the synthesis of the lipid-linked oligosaccharide used for the asparagine-linked glycosylation of proteins in that order. Here we show that, given a combination of the hac1 defect with a disruption of ALG6, ALG8, and ALG10, no strains grow on inositol-free medium. However, the growth defect of the hac1-alg10 double disrupted was partially, but significantly, suppressed by the addition of inositol to the medium. These results indicate that inositol, according to the numbers of glucose residues in the oligosaccharide, plays an important role in the stress response and quality control of glycoproteins in the ER.
 

ppodhajski

Senior Member
Messages
243
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@ppodhajski

OK, i will have a look at L-Tyrosine then, we may find something.

The reason for staying away from Protein is probably because of Phenylalanine ; I know that i have SNPs that point to a BH4 deficiency and other member forums have that problem too.

I actually induced a Sensorineural-Hearing Loss (SSHL) when i avoided all animal Protein for 20 days and then the day that i ate meat -about 1.5 hour after- i lost my hearing on the right ear for around 12 hours. I wasn't taking TUDCA at the time.

Also, pehaps it makes sense to avoid too much Protein : Although i am not a Biologist, i was thinking that if we have some sort of Protein Misfolding Disease then it makes sense not to burden your body with Proteins. Perhaps this is overly simplistic but it's just a thought.

Protein folding will happen regardless of the protein you eat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_folding


Can you give some examples ?

(on why I would never take any supplemental amino acids or any thing that is a product of an enzymatic reaction.)

I will give you my favorite examples; treatment of Parkinson's with L-Dopa (a protein).

One of the first line treatments for PD is L-Dopa. Does it cure PD? Nope. Does it help some symptoms with PD? Yes. Does it make the disease progress faster? Evidence points to yes: http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa033447

This is what I see happening in PD. First, a chart.

Amine Pathway

Amine Pathway.jpg


(I am not going to riddle this with links to the research. If you want to check, check, if you cannot find the research ask me. Also, I am using B2 as shorthand for FAD which is the cofactor and a reduced form of B2. Increasing B2 will increase FAD in the body)

So they know there is problem with Dopamine neurons in PD so they give l-dopa to make more dopamine. As you can see in the chart l-dopa is turned into dopamine by DDC (AAAD in the chart) which uses B6 as a cofactor. So they also have PD patients supplement with B6. (Hey, look at that! Doctors using cofactors to speed up enzymatic reactions!) But while this helps with symptoms it does not cure the disease. Why is this? Here is my theory.

People with PD also seem to have high activity MAO and COMT enyzmes, meaning the break down dopamine more quickly than the average person. As we can see, MAO uses B2 as a cofactor and COMT uses magnesium. Since these enzymes work fast they will use more B2 and Magnesium, thus making it more likely they will have deficiencies in these vitamins (and they do have these deficiencies). The deficiencies will be higher with the more protein they eat.

Now, when MAO breaks down dopamine it creates oxidative stress, this is what causes the dopamagenic nerve degeneration in PD. (COMT does not increase oxidative stress but puts more pressure on the MAO enzyme)

So, by giving L-DOPA to PD patents they are actually causing more oxidative damage even though some symptoms go away!

Now, lets look at B2 as a cofactor for MAO. It is obvious that increasing B2 would also be bad since this would also speed up MAO and causing oxidative stress. Yet, they find ribolavin deficiency highly prevalent in PD patients. But they find riboflavin helps PD when not on L-Dopa and on was on a low protein diet!
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2003001000019&script=sci_arttext

So, why does this work?

Well, they also find alteration in glutathione metabolism in PD. Looking at the glutathione pathway we see:

riboflavin_figure1_v3.png


Hey, look at that, a B2 deficiency will also slow glutathione recycling! What do they find in PD patients? Lower levels of reduced glutathione! So, any OTHER genes as well that might reduce the raw materials for glutathione must be examined as well, like CBS.

However, people with fast MAO and COMT genes should lower protein intake FIRST. They should not take riboflavin unless they have bad Glutathione Reductase genes. Once people have Parkinson's they should lower protein AND take B2 until glutathione levels are restored. And once symptoms are resolved they should stop the B2.

Once the nerve damage is done it might be too late, but this will prevent those with these genes from getting PD and it will stop the progression of the disease.

So we see,by treating with a product (l dopa) we will create imbalance by using up cofactors that might be needed for other enzymes (B2). This leads to the common cycle of first it works, then it does not. Since I started taking only cofactors I have not had this issues. I take them till I feel better then I stop. When I feel symptoms coming back I take them again.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@ppodhajski

Wow great stuff there.


I do agree with you regarding the cofactors. For some time i was getting Mucuna Pruriens and 5-HTP but soon i realized that i didn't need them.

Another thing that i noticed Thanks to your post is the fact that i do not take into account GSH and this is a *serious* mistake.


A first matching that i did at the topics from Pubmed for Reduced Glutathione looks like this :


*********Topic : reduced glutathione ***************
reduced_glutathione.csv : 98.98 %
oxidative_stress_markers.csv : 5.50 %
oxidative_stress_protection.csv : 5.02 %

lipoic_acid.csv : 3.34 %
hepatotoxicity.csv : 3.12 %
thioredoxin_reductase.csv : 2.57 %
ros.csv : 2.00 %

mucuna.csv : 1.66 %
curcumin.csv : 1.49 %
cyp2e1.csv : 1.44 %
peroxynitrite.csv : 1.42 %
selenium.csv : 1.32 %

coenzymeq10.csv : 1.26 %
creatine_supplementation.csv : 1.19 %
selenium_deficiency.csv : 1.07 %
nadph_human.csv : 1.06 %
resveratrol.csv : 0.95 %
inducible_nos.csv : 0.94 %
mitochondrial_dysfunction.csv : 0.87 %

d-limonene.csv : 0.82 %
zinc_supplementation.csv : 0.79 %
tocotrienol.csv : 0.78 %
hepatocytes.csv : 0.74 %
uric_acid.csv : 0.70 %
hexosamine.csv : 0.67 %
taurine.csv : 0.61 %

nadh_human.csv : 0.61 %
excitotoxicity.csv : 0.60 %
cyp1a2.csv : 0.57 %
p450oxidoreductase.csv : 0.56 %
cyp1a1.csv : 0.56 %
fmo3.csv : 0.54 %
ginkgo.csv : 0.48 %
monosodium_glutamate.csv : 0.46 %
l_carnitine.csv : 0.45 %
udpgluc.csv : 0.42 %
urea_cycle.csv : 0.42 %
advanced_glycation_end.csv : 0.41 %
tetrahydrobiopterin.csv : 0.40 %
l-arginine.csv : 0.40 %
caspase_human.csv : 0.39 %
tudca.csv : 0.38 %
er_stress.csv : 0.36 %
choline_deficiency.csv : 0.35 %

xbp1.csv : 0.35 %
glutamate.csv : 0.34 %
nafld.csv : 0.33 %
hsp70.csv : 0.32 %
riboflavin.csv : 0.32 %
dopamine_levels.csv : 0.32 %
endothelial_nos.csv : 0.29 %
dolichol.csv : 0.28 %
neuronal_nos.csv : 0.28 %
gpr78.csv : 0.27 %
triiodothyronine_levels.csv : 0.25 %
pqq.csv : 0.25 %
insp3.csv : 0.24 %
cox-2.csv : 0.24 %
l_tryptophan.csv : 0.23 %
osmolytes.csv : 0.23 %
atf6.csv : 0.23 %
floaters.csv : 0.22 %
ire1.csv : 0.22 %
l_tyrosine.csv : 0.22 %
cyp3a4.csv : 0.22 %
hmgcoa.csv : 0.21 %
calcium_homeostasis.csv : 0.21 %
vitamin_b6.csv : 0.21 %
omega3.csv : 0.20 %
caloric_restriction.csv : 0.20 %
freet3.csv : 0.19 %
inflammatory_response.csv : 0.19 %
o-glcnacylation.csv : 0.19 %
heat_shock_protein.csv : 0.18 %
cfs.csv : 0.18 %
serotonin_levels.csv : 0.18 %
upr.csv : 0.17 %
perk.csv : 0.17 %
acetyl-coa.csv : 0.17 %
butyrate.csv : 0.16 %
mcp-1.csv : 0.15 %
oxalates.csv : 0.14 %
phospholipid_human.csv : 0.14 %
cholestasis.csv : 0.14 %
l-dopa.csv : 0.14 %
vcam-1.csv : 0.14 %
cimetidine.csv : 0.14 %
steatohepatitis.csv : 0.13 %
star.csv : 0.12 %
dopamine.csv : 0.12 %
magnesium_deficiency.csv : 0.12 %
microglia.csv : 0.12 %
phosphatidylcholine.csv : 0.12 %
resistant_starch.csv : 0.11 %
mast_cell_activation.csv : 0.11 %
cyp2d6.csv : 0.10 %
hydroxysteroid_dehydrogenase.csv : 0.10 %
chaperones.csv : 0.10 %
glycosylation.csv : 0.10 %
rar.csv : 0.10 %
o-glcnac.csv : 0.10 %
p53.csv : 0.10 %
tmao.csv : 0.10 %
3betahsd.csv : 0.09 %
vitamin_k2.csv : 0.09 %
beta-alanine.csv : 0.09 %
human_semen.csv : 0.09 %
asymmetric_dimethylarginine.csv : 0.09 %
p450scc.csv : 0.09 %
cortisol_levels.csv : 0.08 %
anhedonia.csv : 0.08 %
hsc.csv : 0.08 %
sirt1.csv : 0.08 %
il_10.csv : 0.08 %
amyloid.csv : 0.08 %
isotretinoin.csv : 0.08 %
histone_deacetylase.csv : 0.08 %
pregnenolone.csv : 0.07 %
probiotics.csv : 0.07 %
inositol.csv : 0.07 %
iron_deficiency.csv : 0.07 %
autism.csv : 0.07 %
testosterone_production.csv : 0.06 %
nlinkedglycosylation.csv : 0.06 %
pbmc.csv : 0.06 %
ckd.csv : 0.06 %
hmgb1.csv : 0.06 %
protease_inhibitor.csv : 0.06 %
cyp1b1.csv : 0.05 %
p5p.csv : 0.05 %
acetylcholine.csv : 0.05 %
allopregnanolone.csv : 0.05 %
trpv.csv : 0.05 %
tau.csv : 0.05 %
insulin_resistance.csv : 0.05 %
vitamin_d3.csv : 0.04 %
hpa_axis.csv : 0.04 %
human_proteinuria.csv : 0.04 %
phenylketonuria.csv : 0.04 %
n-acetylglucosamine.csv : 0.04 %
adrenergic_receptor.csv : 0.04 %
subclinicalhypo.csv : 0.04 %
finasteride.csv : 0.04 %
misfolded_proteins.csv : 0.04 %
mthfr.csv : 0.04 %
ngf.csv : 0.04 %
5-htp.csv : 0.04 %
immune_response.csv : 0.04 %
gaba_human.csv : 0.04 %
stat1.csv : 0.03 %
rxr.csv : 0.03 %
5alphareductase.csv : 0.02 %
angiotensin_human.csv : 0.02 %
insomnia.csv : 0.02 %
tinnitus.csv : 0.02 %
norepinephrine.csv : 0.02 %
gluten.csv : 0.02 %
sinusitis.csv : 0.02 %
dht.csv : 0.02 %
glycoproteins.csv : 0.01 %
hgh.csv : 0.01 %
neurite_outgrowth.csv : 0.01 %
dysautonomia.csv : 0.01 %
irritable_bowel.csv : 0.01 %
baroreceptor.csv : 0.01 %
ebv.csv : 0.01 %
adrenal_insufficiency.csv : 0.01 %
social_anxiety.csv : 0.01 %
sshl.csv : 0.01 %

I already started yet another run, it should take around 6 hours to complete as i have added entries for Riboflavin and Reduced Glutathione.


I will let you know.


Thanks again :thumbsup:
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,952
Protein folding will happen regardless of the protein you eat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_folding




(on why I would never take any supplemental amino acids or any thing that is a product of an enzymatic reaction.)

I will give you my favorite examples; treatment of Parkinson's with L-Dopa (a protein).

One of the first line treatments for PD is L-Dopa. Does it cure PD? Nope. Does it help some symptoms with PD? Yes. Does it make the disease progress faster? Evidence points to yes: http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa033447

This is what I see happening in PD. First, a chart.

Amine Pathway

View attachment 12347

(I am not going to riddle this with links to the research. If you want to check, check, if you cannot find the research ask me. Also, I am using B2 as shorthand for FAD which is the cofactor and a reduced form of B2. Increasing B2 will increase FAD in the body)

So they know there is problem with Dopamine neurons in PD so they give l-dopa to make more dopamine. As you can see in the chart l-dopa is turned into dopamine by DDC (AAAD in the chart) which uses B6 as a cofactor. So they also have PD patients supplement with B6. (Hey, look at that! Doctors using cofactors to speed up enzymatic reactions!) But while this helps with symptoms it does not cure the disease. Why is this? Here is my theory.

People with PD also seem to have high activity MAO and COMT enyzmes, meaning the break down dopamine more quickly than the average person. As we can see, MAO uses B2 as a cofactor and COMT uses magnesium. Since these enzymes work fast they will use more B2 and Magnesium, thus making it more likely they will have deficiencies in these vitamins (and they do have these deficiencies). The deficiencies will be higher with the more protein they eat.

Now, when MAO breaks down dopamine it creates oxidative stress, this is what causes the dopamagenic nerve degeneration in PD. (COMT does not increase oxidative stress but puts more pressure on the MAO enzyme)

So, by giving L-DOPA to PD patents they are actually causing more oxidative damage even though some symptoms go away!

Now, lets look at B2 as a cofactor for MAO. It is obvious that increasing B2 would also be bad since this would also speed up MAO and causing oxidative stress. Yet, they find ribolavin deficiency highly prevalent in PD patients. But they find riboflavin helps PD when not on L-Dopa and on was on a low protein diet!
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2003001000019&script=sci_arttext

So, why does this work?

Well, they also find alteration in glutathione metabolism in PD. Looking at the glutathione pathway we see:

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Hey, look at that, a B2 deficiency will also slow glutathione recycling! What do they find in PD patients? Lower levels of reduced glutathione! So, any OTHER genes as well that might reduce the raw materials for glutathione must be examined as well, like CBS.

However, people with fast MAO and COMT genes should lower protein intake FIRST. They should not take riboflavin unless they have bad Glutathione Reductase genes. Once people have Parkinson's they should lower protein AND take B2 until glutathione levels are restored. And once symptoms are resolved they should stop the B2.

Once the nerve damage is done it might be too late, but this will prevent those with these genes from getting PD and it will stop the progression of the disease.

So we see,by treating with a product (l dopa) we will create imbalance by using up cofactors that might be needed for other enzymes (B2). This leads to the common cycle of first it works, then it does not. Since I started taking only cofactors I have not had this issues. I take them till I feel better then I stop. When I feel symptoms coming back I take them again.

I agree that B2 is the way to go for Parkinson's disease, may I add some thoughts?

What if MAO and COMT are high because of the body's inability to use dopamine and therefore the need to break down the excess that isn't being used. The treatment using dopamine doesn't take into account why is not the dopamine that is already available being used. I agree that adding in more dopamine is not a good idea.

The article that says that a low protein diet actually says no red meat, and I am going to conjecture that it's because of the iron that red meat contains. The iron deposits in the substantia nigra in those with Parkinson's is a part of the problem, why it's there I don't know. But one of the reasons that B2 might be good for Parkinson's is that it helps to handle iron correctly, moving toxic stores out of the liver (and out of the brain?).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17465880

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bri/2011/896474/
 
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