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New doctor wants to treat empirically for Lyme, good idea?

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
which medications contain Daptomycin or Cefoperazone? I have never heard of these medications..?

Daptomycin ,Cefoperazone and Doxycycline ,Are the Three Antibiotics, That were found to completely Eradicate Borrelia Burgdorferi in All its Pleomorphic Forms, Lyme Doctors understand this Huge Problem of the Bacteria Changing from one form into another. So you cant just combine any antibiotic there is different classes of antibiotics,so a lyme Doctor might combine a protein synthesis inhibitor antibiotic like Doxycycline or Azithromycin with a cell wall inhibitor like Penicillin or Rocephin and then also add in a cyst killer Like Metronidazole. Up to this point to my knowledge there had never been a research study that had analyzed all the FDA approved antibiotics in single double and triple combos to see how well they work on all the pleomorphic stages of the bacteria, like biofilms which by definition is considered just about incurable because it coats its self in a mucosa that prevents your immune system and anti microbial agents to get in. By the way most mainstream Doctors don't believe in Borrelia biofilms which is the big Difference between lyme literate MD'S and other Doctors, even though Borrelia biofilms are a medical fact with miles of research backing it up including this new research. Anyway this combination of FDA approved antibiotics where the only combo that completely eradicated the Bacteria in all its forms,(in vivo,in a petri dish) To answer your Question These are older Antibiotics That haven't really been used in that exact combo for lyme. They do need to follow up with animal and then human studies ...BUT they are already FDA approved antibiotics and are a combination that can be used together. If I was in a dire situation with Lyme disease which I am.I wouldn't and wont wait two plus years for more research. But I have been told by my Doctor that we need to proceed cautiously because someone could go into prophylactic shock with a die off effect. I hope that helps.
Note: lyme doctors have said they understand the problem with persistors(biofilms) but never claimed they had all the answers.They always promoted more research .To me the big news is that this and another plos one research paper, proves Biofilm and Disproves the previous research of Alan Steere, Sapiro, Wormser and the IDSA. And is great hope that the treating Lyme Doctors have some better tools to work with.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117207
 
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kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
Time for you to unleash your killer argument imo.



Is there any good evidence that alternative/non-mainstream Lyme tests find higher positive results for those with symptoms than those without? If not, why assume that a positive test is related to symptoms?

"It is well known that at least 5-10% of the so called "healthy" people are carrying Lyme deep within their body just waiting to pop out when convenient."

Is there any good evidence that this is true?
The only research paper you provided is by one of the biggest deniers of the factual biology of Lyme Disease ,Alan Steere Doesn't even Believe in Borrelia biofilm Which is a medical fact. He's a Rheumatologist. I'll listen to Alan Macdonald who is a Pathologist, and Eva Sapi who is a Microbiologist using atomic force Microscopy and the main player in Advanced Laboratory services.If you want to learn about Igenex ,here you go, right from Bob Giguere of Igenex .I do wonder if you even look at any of the videos or research.

 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I would count the NHS test as 'mainstream', and I also have concerns about Dr Myhill's advice more generally. She does seem to be willing to go beyond what is supported by the evidence, and also her 'treatment' regime was very demanding for patients, with very little evidence that it truly helped people.

Personally, I think that it is better to go on without any treatment than to pursue treatments that do not have good evidence of value. Better to put one's time and money into trying to improve things for the future than just hope for the best with the things on offer now imo. That is just my judgement and preference though, and you may have different preferences.

I have seen a lot of people pour a lot of time, money and effort into things that have done them no good, and to me, this seems like a real waste of human potential. But also, I am desperate to recover my health, and can understand how that desperation may lead to people doing things that aren't what I would do.

I do think it's important that doctors are clear with their patients about when there is no good evidence for the value of particular testing/treatments, so that if patients do decide to go ahead they are doing so in a genuinely informed manner rather than just trusting the expertise of their doctor.

Wish I had a more positive answer for you - good luck.



I'm more interested in evidence for the value of alternative/non-mainstream/whatever-you-want-to-call-it testing.



Yeah, I know how to search pubmed, it's just that the results I found tended to be for limited geographic areas for which prevalence varies massively. Also prevalence of anti-bodies is not the same as evidence that "people are carrying Lyme deep within their body just waiting to pop out when convenient."
If you Have read any of the links I've posted ,Its either research or making references to research. Did you even read the new published Plos one "published research EVIDENCE ,By the way human experience is evidence, which you don't appear to have as it relates to Borrelia.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
GcMAF, I was responding to Esther.

GracieJ, no one wants to ´show you the money´ - it´s like the atheist/theist debates, we are trying to persuade the moderates, not the hard-liners. And when I say persuade, I mean persuade them that what the CDC or their country´s health authority says is true might not actually be the case. After that, I think it´s up to the patient to decide for themselves whether there is sufficient evidence to justify taking embarking on a lengthy treatment process.

Oh, and I´m glad that you actually referred back to the subject of this thread, which as I have pointed out several times, has very little to do with what we´ve been discussing for the last 10 pages.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
If I went to a doctor today who read over my history, and immediately went to the Lyme discussion without a lot of other lab work being done, I would scream and run.
I would agree. But I don't know of any doctors who are actually doing this. Dr de Meirleir at least is running a ton of tests, including ones which look for different infections, completely different potential problems, and markers which can help support or discount a diagnosis of Lyme or other infections.

I don't know who these doctors are who diagnose everyone with Lyme after an initial 15 minute visit, but they seem pretty hypothetical thus far.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Indeed. I have a hard time getting a Lyme diagnosis - and I live in a hyper-endemic area, am 2T positive, positive for the C6, have demonstrated Bb-specific antibodies in my CSF, have swollen knees and plummeting neuroevalv scores and neuropathies.

I have had at least three doctors walk away saying I cannot have Lyme. One of those diagnosed me with ME/CFS.
 

MadeleineKM

Senior Member
Messages
205
@Esther12 ..what if you are bedbound, suicidal, and basically feel like you are on your deathbed? should you still wait for proven treatments?
And actually, I think treating Lyme symptoms is proven enough when many people are getting so much better. I have waited for 20 years and for me the hospitals/doctors in my country dont exist anymore, we are on our own
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
The only research paper you provided is by one of the biggest deniers of the factual biology of Lyme Disease ,Alan Steere

IgeneX's testing has only been assessed under blinded conditions once. I think that those wanting to sell new forms of testing to patients should carry out this sort of research first.

If you Have read any of the links I've posted ,Its either research or making references to research. Did you even read the new published Plos one "published research EVIDENCE ,By the way human experience is evidence, which you don't appear to have as it relates to Borrelia.

I read the abstracts and they didn't seem to relate to the matters under dispute. Human experience does count as evidence, but we also need to be aware that anecdotes can often generate misleading medical claims.

@Esther12 ..what if you are bedbound, suicidal, and basically feel like you are on your deathbed? should you still wait for proven treatments?

Everyone has different circumstances and preferences and I can only speak for my own. Even people in desperate situations should be provided with reliable information about the medical options available to them though.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Esther, can you explain the theoretical reasons why a.) the LTT-ELISPOT b.) the IGENEX Western Blot might be more sensitive than the ILADS tests?

Hint: you need a different reason for each one. There is also a bonus reason if you think this is too easy.
 
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drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
I'm still here. I was just reading the comments and trying to learn from them.

I'm going to do the Igenix tests before attempting to treat.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
This word you keep using Alternative testing ,doesn't even make sense,FDA approval in not a requirement.The testing is not alternative it is another test.Your way of wording things is suspect.
FDA approval is only required for tests that are marketed to other labs. Single lab tests, like those offered by IGeneX and Advanced Laboratory Services (ALS) do not require FDA approval. Instead, federal law requires that they undergo a rigorous validation process established by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA). CMS and CLIA require developers to prove that their tests are accurate, precise, sensitive, and specific prior to marketing. Both IGeneX and ALS diagnostic tests are CLIA and CMS approved.

I don't think the use of 'alternative testing' is problematic. I just assume 'alternative' refers to testing not generally used in mainstream medical practice. I guess people can attach whatever meaning they want to the word 'alternative'. There is a government recommended approach to testing which one can follow or there is 'alternative' testing that is available from individual laboratories. I don't think the use of the word 'alternative' is suspect, it's just a way of defining what is being talked about. Asking sceptical questions about lab tests is entirely reasonable when it comes to health matters.

As for being a CLIA and CMS approved laboratory. Yes, Igenex is CLIA approved.

It is Federal law in the USA that any person or facility that performs lab tests on human specimens for the purpose of diagnosis and/or treatment must have a CLIA certificate. This includes a doctor doing dip stick urine tests as well as labs doing multiple tests like IGeneX.

There are different types of certificates and IGeneX has a CLIA 'Certificate of Accreditation'. What this means is that IGeneX has opted to have a CMS approved accrediting agency perform biannual inspections (for an additional fee) rather than CMS . So IGeneX must follow the accrediting agencies guidelines in addition to the federal regulations.

CLIA certified labs must meet basic standards of operation, record keeping and training. CLIA is more concerned with the performance of a lab in general rather than the performance of specific tests. As already mentioned, IGeneX is not FDA approved because their tests are only used in their lab and not in other labs. Having FDA approval means that the tests have been approved on the basis of clinical sensitivity and specificity. The only requirement for a CLIA approved lab is that the test must detect what is says it does and meet the basic standards of operation, record keeping and staff training. IGeneX meets those requirements, therefore is CLIA approved. That does not mean the test meets any FDA standards as to what would be acceptable sensitivity and specificity. I am pretty sure that is the state of affairs with CLIA despite the quote provided by kungfudao. I googled that quote and got 4 pages all from lyme focused websites and it seems that particular information is somewhat inaccurate and misleading. When I search CLIA alone and CLIA and borrelia, I got a few different hits which matched previous information I have read regarding CLIA accreditation.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6315a4.htm
When evaluating testing options, providers and their patients might be confused by the distinction between Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA) certification of laboratories and FDA clearance or approval of specific tests. CLIA certification of a laboratory indicates that the laboratory meets a set of basic quality standards. It is important to note, however, that the CLIA program does not address the clinical validity of a specific test (i.e., the accuracy with which the test identifies, measures, or predicts the presence or absence of a clinical condition in a patient). FDA clearance/approval of a test, on the other hand, provides assurance that the test itself has adequate analytical and clinical validation and is safe and effective.

Proper evidence of the clinical accuracy of IGeneX would have to come from external published scientific literature which in the case of IGeneX is very limited. So would a little bit of caution not be warranted when deciding to pay for an IGeneX test or not?

A few years ago there was lots of talk about a CLIA certified lab and people were saying that the lab tests should be trusted on the basis that it was a 'CLIA certified' lab -- gold standard, government approved. That lab was VIP Dx who offered all the tests that diagnosed many people with ME/CFS as being infected with XMRV. We now know these tests were worthless despite their CLIA certification. At one point, VIP Dx issued a press release stating that their tests are 'CLIA approved' and therefore they are certified 'to offer and perform only clinically validated laboratory tests'. In the press release it states that the assays were 'internally validated' and not externally validated. This is similar to IGeneX has done -- internally validated their tests. So no, it appears that maybe being CLIA certified is not the best argument for being tested for lyme by IGeneX. So what is the best argument for using IGeneX? There are a ton of opinions about that, I guess it's up to individuals if they want to trust one lab over another. I guess when all is said and done, you really can't trust any of the tests 100 percent, but some appear to be much better than others for sure.

Perhaps, the best route would be for IGeneX to get FDA approval. If they do work as IGeneX claims then they would become the gold standard with no more questions about them.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Drob31, since you were given a clinical diagnosis of Lyme, I would also try to work out (perhaps even get a second opinion, though be aware who is giving you that second opinion, i.e. are they ILADS or IDSA?) whether your clinical picture suggests Lyme.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I bet Infectolab are hoping that the FDA get their way - it would be great for business!
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
@Esther12 ..what if you are bedbound, suicidal, and basically feel like you are on your deathbed? should you still wait for proven treatments?
Hell no. People have been duped by all the propaganda .... like most doctors still believe 2 weeks antibiotics will cure it and don't believe in Borrelia Biofilm which is a medical fact. When you are bed bound sick as hell and in 10 min a doctor writes you a prescription for antidepressants ...That's when you run ...a lot of people spouting off that have no clue what they are talking about.

 
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msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
It would be great if there was someone as knowledgeable about Lyme as Duncan, but who took the other side - then we would see a proper debate.