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Interview with Dr. De Meirleir about ME/CFS/SEID and Lyme Oct, 2014

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Jonathan Edwards, no one has done what I suggested to you. I would be delighted to critique whatever study you think has actually accomplished this. :)

You may wish to read up on the Lyme Wars. I would recommend Pamela Weintraub's Cure Unknown as a good starting point - that way you can approach individual studies with a crisp perspective.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Jonathan Edwards, no one has done what I suggested to you. I would be delighted to critique whatever study you think has actually accomplished this. :)

You may wish to read up on the Lyme Wars. I would recommend Pamela Weintraub's Cure Unknown as a good starting point - that way you can approach individual studies with a crisp perspective.

No, nobody has done what you suggested but I think what you suggested was unnecessarily complicated as a way to answer the question prima facie as to whether people in a standard ME clinic as defined in my previous post have evidence of a different immune response to borrelia from healthy people on basic routine tests. We just need something straightforward that any ME doctor can rustle up by getting an unbiased sample of patients and controls. If that shows a hint of something it may be worth getting more pernickety.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Please clarify what you mean by:
a) basic routine tests;
b) something straightforward;
and c) pernickety.

Oh, and there are lots of qualified ME doctors in the UK? Many of which can decide what constitutes an unbiased sample?

There are a few here in the States, but I suspect not as many as the UK evidently has.
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
Just to be clear AGAIN. Most of KDM's treatment does not focus on Lyme. He tests people and then treats based on those results and clinical history. Each patient may have a different profile and hence different treatment plans - this is actually his strong point.

The TESTS he uses are also not 'his' tests, they are the same as the tests used by all the ILADS Dr's who treat Lyme and co infections. There are Drs in the UK who use these tests. they are also widely used on the US, France, Germany to name but a few.

@justy when I say "his tests" I mean "the tests he uses" not that he owns the tests or something. As Sushi said, he used 4 differenet labs to test him so it would be strange to sugest he owns 4 labs hehe

And yes, I always see him on intervies saying that the treatment plan must be taylored for every patient and I believe that. But since he's saying he's finding Lyme in 95% of the patients, that treatment would have to focus on that somehow... doesn't it?
 

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
.........It is the comparison to controls that seems to be absent from all the stuff suggesting that PWME have significantly positive tests. Using a blinded control is just the most basic quality control procedure and without it we do not have anything reliable to go on as far as I can see.

I must be missing something. what they did they do wrong in the previously cited letter in "brain, behavior, and immunity"?

Using the same methodology in a new analysis, we screened plasma samples from 51 ME/CFS patients (36 female; mean [SD] age, 51.2 [11.7] years) and 53 age- and gender-matched healthy controls (40 female; mean age, 50.0 [13.6] years), provided by the SolveCFS BioBank (Irlbeck et al., 2014). This study was approved by the Institutional Review Board of Columbia University Medical Center. The ME/CFS and control sample sizes in this study provided greater than 90% power, with a < 0.05, to detect the same frequencies of antibody reactivity previously observed in the PTLDS patients and associated controls (Chandra et al., 2010). ME/CFS patients met the Fukuda or the Canadian cri- teria for this condition (Carruthers, 2007; Fukuda et al., 1994) and lacked histories suggestive of Lyme disease. Screening question- naires were used to evaluate the general health of the unaffected controls and to confirm that that they did not meet ME/CFS case definition criteria. In contrast to the findings of our prior study on PTLDS patients (Chandra et al., 2010), we found no significant difference in the prevalence of anti-neural antibody reactivity between ME/CFS patients (4 of 51; 7.8%) and healthy controls (7 of 53; 13.2%) (p = 0.5).
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Please clarify what you mean by:
a) basic routine tests;
b) something straightforward;
and c) pernickety.

Oh, and there are lots of qualified ME doctors in the UK? Many of which can decide what constitutes an unbiased sample?

There are a few here in the States, but I suspect not as many as the UK evidently has.

Duncan, you do make a meal of things.
If there are no basic routine tests then we are all in the dark - the Catch 22 I mentioned before. Straightforward and pernickety are easy enough.

Yes, there are lots of doctors in the UK who understand what is reliably known about ME. I know a number. What constitutes an unbiased sample is a matter of simple practical common sense. For instance you could take everyone whose name begins with P, because P is unlikely to be associated with a systematic biological confounding factor - even if there is a remote possibility that it would include lots of people called Perez with an unusual allele for a relevant immune response gene. You could take everyone who registered in the clinic in a year divisible by seven. Lots of sensible people know how to make unbiased selections like that.

It would help me and PWME if rather than making rhetorical and loaded statements about the competence of professionals you gave me some evidence that I could use to encourage the international collection of researchers whose workshop I will be helping to chair at the end of the month to think more about borrelia.

Think like a hotel owner approached by a rep from Tripadvisor who wants to be sure that the hotel has actually been built yet. And that it has running water. I have lots of clients visiting my site.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I must be missing something. what they did they do wrong in the previously cited letter in "brain, behavior, and immunity"?

I am not following this last post voner. You are quoting some data on anti-neuronal antibodies being the same in ME as controls, unlike in Lyme patients. That seems to suggest that ME patients are not Lyme patients. I am missing something here in what you are wanting to say, for sure.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Jonathan, I already recommended a good starting point with Weintraub's Lyme biopic (if you will). It provides an excellent history and will bring you up to speed about salient issues you will need to appreciate.

There is no single study that I would recommend - although Steere et als July 1983 Annals of Medical Journal piece on the Treatment of Early Manifestations of Lyme leaps to mind as a solid intro into Lyme politics.

Perhaps you may wish to visit LymeNet Europe and view the hundreds of studies and accompanying discussions to better embrace the complexities that may present with your efforts.

ETA - I really would be delighted to see that study you thought captured the data we discussed earlier.
 

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
I am quoting from the letter,

Anti-neural antibody response in patients with post-treatment Lyme disease symptoms versus those with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25866194

i'm wondering what is wrong with these authors methodologies? the sample sizes are small, but what else? To me, They seem to have done what you suggested, comparison of ME/CFS patients to healthy controls. they also saw that in a previous study they compared "chronic" lyme patients with healthy controls.
 

Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
I'm enjoying the vigorous debate on this subject, but wanted to add the possibility that Lyme may be more ubiquitous than what we were led to believe, which would account for the overall increase of CFS cases (wider Fukuda criteria). For years the CDC, advised by the IDSA, promulgated that Lyme is an infection only problematic to certain regions of the country that it's easily cleared with two weeks of antibiotics.

Then last year the CDC unceremoniously updated their yearly estimates from 30,000 new cases to 300,000. That's x10 times their previous estimates (300,000 NEW cases of Lyme every year!), and now it affects just about every state in the union, and Canada too. Why the sudden change, since they had everything "under control"?

With the IDSA guidelines, which recommend the extremely unreliable Elisa as the first test to confirm infections, lots of people are falling through the cracks, missing the window for treatment, and end up falling down the spiral of misdiagnosis for years.

Also, what if there are other factors beyond exposure to Bb that would determine if the infection becomes chronic? That would account for potential similarities between patients and controls in levels of exposure. I wanted to point to other studies that may shed light this phenomenon: why some people recover from Lyme, and some develop chronic or antibiotic refractory Lyme. Dr. Brigitte Huber at Tufts is pointing at the HLA-DR4 human DNA allele as a contributing factor for chronic Lyme. People with the HLA-DR4 allele (identified as responsible for rheumatoid arthritis) do not develop the right antibodies to fight borrelia, producing interferon gamma instead.

In a normal immune response, the immune cells called T cells are stimulated to produce interferon gamma that is supposed to regulate your immune response. Other immune cells, called B cells, are stimulated to produce antibodies to fight the invading foreign body.

But something can go wrong: in an autoimmune disease, the immune system launches this attack against a protein normally produced by your body itself, known as a self-protein. Dr. Brigitte Huber, an immunologist at Tufts Medical School, hypothesized that in the case of Lyme disease, the bacteria mimicked this self-protein. In this case, antibiotics will not relieve the symptoms of Lyme disease because, even though the invading foreign body disappears, the immune system is still attacking the self-protein. And it cannot stop.

In order to prevent chronic Lyme disease, then, we need to understand why an infection by Borrelia burgdorferi sometimes becomes chronic despite antibiotic treatment. Dr. Huber thinks she has found the answer. The key lies in one particular allele of a Human Lymphocyte Antigen (HLA) gene.
HLA Genes

But genes influence more than how you look: they oversee how your body behaves. There are lots of genes handling lots of things in your body, including the production of various proteins. In particular, there is a family of HLA genes. The National Institutes of Health explain HLA this way: "The HLA gene family provides instructions for making a group of related proteins known as the human leukocyte antigen (HLA) complex. The HLA complex helps the immune system distinguish the body's own proteins from proteins made by foreign invaders such as viruses and bacteria."

Dr. Huber began her research into the genetic mechanisms behind Lyme disease by looking at the genes of infected patients. In particular she looked at the HLA genes because they are known to encode genes that determine an individual's response to antigens. She found that patients who developed chronic Lyme disease had a different allele of the HLA-DR gene than those who recovered with antibiotic treatment. Specifically, those with chronic Lyme disease had the HLA-DR4 allele, whereas those who recovered had the HLA-DR11 allele. Based on these observations, Dr. Huber predicted that the HLA-DR allele type was an important indicator of whether an infected person would develop chronic Lyme disease.

In order to test her hypothesis, Dr. Huber used the transgenic technique to insert human genetic material into mice. These transgenic mice had identical genetic information, except for one human gene known as a transgene. Some of the mice had the human HLA-DR4 transgene and some had the human HLA-DR11 transgene. Dr. Huber then infected the mice with the spirochete that causes Lyme disease. She wanted to see if there was a difference in the immune response between the two genes. Dr. Huber found that the mice with the HLA-DR4 allele produced lots of interferon gamma and no antibodies to the spirochete. In contrast, the mice with the HLA-DR11 allele produced lots of antibodies but no interferon gamma. In other words, simply the presence of the DR4 allele was enough to trigger an inflammatory immune response. All of the other genetic information in the mice was exactly the same. "This was quite a shocking result," Dr. Huber recalled. "We did not expect this all-or-nothing response."

Is HLA-DR4 the Culprit?

It appeared from this first set of experiments that the inflammatory response could be traced back to a single allele of the HLA-DR gene. Previous experiments had shown that mice with the HLA-DR4 allele developed chronic Lyme disease when infected with the live spirochete. Despite antibiotic treatment, the mice still developed joint swelling, a characteristic symptom of human Lyme disease. As a result of the experiments, Dr. Huber predicted that if you infected mice carrying the HLA-DR11 allele with the spirochete, they would not develop an infection. To test this prediction, Dr. Huber infected HLA-DR11 mice with the spirochete. Once the mice developed symptoms of Lyme disease, they were treated with antibiotics. As soon as the mice were given antibiotics, the symptoms of the disease disappeared. The results of these experiments confirmed the previous results that the development of chronic Lyme disease depends on the presence of the HLA-DR4 allele.
(...)

http://www.whatayear.org/02_10.html
A certain immune dysfunction seems to be a the core of chronic Lyme too:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20375899

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19333928

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19950279

According to the IDSA, none of these things should even be discussed, as chronic Lyme does not exist according to them, and even deny the use of animal models to study Lyme in humans (Wormser).
 
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Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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Location
Albuquerque
But since he's saying he's finding Lyme in 95% of the patients, that treatment would have to focus on that somehow... doesn't it?
In my experience, he treats patients in what he considers to be appropriate stages. For instance, to improve the response to, say, Lyme treatment, he might want to treat an abnormal immune system first, or infections that showed up in gut tests. This is what he has done with me and with others I know. He doesn't always jump in and treat Lyme or another pathogen first. He often wants to strength overall health first.

Sushi
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Yes, there are lots of doctors in the UK who understand what is reliably known about ME. I know a number.
Since many of our UK members complain about not being able to find doctors in the UK who know anything about ME, perhaps you would be willing to provide a list of these many doctors. It would be a great benefit to the PR UK cohort, most of whom are suffering with no medical care at all for their ME because they can't find all these doctors you speak of. A simple list of names would be sufficient as I am sure the patients would be more than willing to do the extra legwork of finding the locations and contact information of these valuable doctors.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Prof. Edwards, the problem, as I´m sure you´re aware, of using any ´replicable´ Lyme test for the kind of study we are talking about is that if it is not sufficiently sensitive it will reduce the power of the study, so that, if those with ME (CCC) and those with CFS (Fukuda) criteria are confounded together, then the ´positive´ signal from the study might be reduced to a non-significant one.

Since we are looking for some sign of Lyme exposure, not to determine current infection, the most sensitive tests should be used. Unlike Shor´s study though, I don´t think we should include tests of non-specific immune function, such as C6 and CD57, since we don´t know whether these are altered in other disease states yet. Rather, the study should use all the current tests for Lyme.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
msf, I agree with much of what you have written. I would point out, however, that the C6 is an amino acid sequence directly from the VlsE protein of Borrelia, so it is highly specific (unlike CD75 which is a marker that could be associated with other conditions/pathogens).
 
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Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
Hi @Jonathan Edwards:
As others have mentioned, I would also suggest reading Pamela Weintraub's materials to get familiar with the awful politics of Lyme in the US. If you have the time, check out the Oscar-finalist documentary "Under Our Skin" as well.

Like in the case of ME/CFS, Lyme patients have been abandoned and abused, and the official stance by the authorities has been the adoption and enforcement of outdated policies as dictated by the IDSA, while ignoring other medical associations (ILADS) and myriads of studies that prove the bb spirochete can be quite resistant to abx. The IDSA holds a tremendous amount of power and influence over any official decisions on Lyme by authorities, often in detriment of patients and the doctors that treat them (hint: health insurance lobby behind IDSA).

Even more tragic, at least to me, is the fact that there are actual treatments and cures for Lyme, but those are being denied by banning doctors or employing antiquated diagnostic techniques (using the Elisa as the first line of defense is useless, as it has been proven to provide up to 55% false negatives). The whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't' so tragic, particularly when 300,000 new cases of Lyme are (officially) reported in the USA every year.

Check out this great 2013 article in CNN by Pamela Weintraub. Here's a section that I find very informative:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/opinion/weintraub-lyme-disease/
Why you should be afraid of Lyme disease

(...)
When doctors attuned to the CDC's rigorous definition resist diagnosing any but the most classic patients -- those with an obvious Lyme rash or highly positive test -- it means patients are left to advance to later, harder-to-treat stages of the disease.

Adding to the mess, physicians frequently fail to test for other, often-debilitating infections from the same black-legged ticks: Babesia, the cause of a malaria-like illness; Anaplasma, an intracellular bacterium; and another spirochete, Borrelia miyamotoi, recently documented as the cause of a relapsing-remitting Lyme-like disease.

In fact, there is a lot of confusion over what may or may not be causing Lyme and other tick-borne diseases around the United States.

In California, scientists have found several new spirochetes yet to be vetted as sources of Lyme-like illness, and researchers in Florida just isolated Lyme spirochetes from ticks despite CDC's website saying not to worry.

Then there's the smackdown over chronic Lyme: Do Lyme patients stay sick following treatment because the infection is still there?

In the 1990s, the National Institutes of Health sought to answer the question by funding a series of studies, the first of which has informed the treatment guidelines published by the Infectious Diseases Society of America ever since. That study monitored 136 Lyme patients who remained chronically ill after antibiotic therapy. In other words, they still showed symptoms of the illness. And yet some 700 blood and spinal fluid samples taken from them yielded no hint of the spirochete.

On one side, experts embraced this small study as proof that chronic Lyme was a myth. They believed the sickness had to be caused by something else since patients showed no sign of the spirochete.

But patients and their doctors were unconvinced. Spirochetes leave body fluids for tissue early in the course of disease, after all, explaining lack of evidence in blood. And researchers had reported persistent spirochetes in the tissue of treated mammals for years.

To resolve the mystery, the NIH commissioned similar experiments with rhesus monkeys. Instead of searching monkey blood for DNA after antibiotic treatment, the researchers would sacrifice the animals and scour their tissue for signs of the Lyme spirochete, including the RNA that is a surer sign of active disease. The monkey studies, published in 2012 by scientists at Tulane, document the presence of Borrelia burgdorferi DNA and RNA following aggressive antibiotic treatment. When uninfected ticks fed on those treated monkeys, they literally ingested intact spirochetes -- proof that the organism remained.


Are small numbers of living spirochetes driving persistent symptoms? Scientific resolution has yet to come, but even the NIH has seen fit to ask the question, launching an ongoing study that tests the ability of treated patients to transmit living Lyme spirochetes to biting ticks.

Despite so many unknowns, continued insistence that Lyme patients are mentally ill has been a drumbeat in our Lymelands,creating a stigma that hampers treatment or the chance of getting well. What we need here, the Institute of Medicine has suggested, is a "process of conflict resolution" to create "a new environment of trust." Progress in research can only happen if the key stakeholders -- the patients -- are included in the work.

Some groups have tried: In June, the National Institute of Standards and Technology held a meeting to help develop better tests. This is a crucial endeavor since standard tests based on legacy technology pick up real patients between just 45% and 75% of the time, especially in the early phase of the disease. Patients and scientists worked together on the NIST event, but collaboration has often been difficult if not impossible to achieve. For instance, a group of scientists has lobbied against federal legislation to increase funding for Lyme disease research. Why? That's just counterproductive.

Powerful 21st-century technologies can help us, but first we've got to admit that waters are muddy and urgent questions remain. Calling patients "Lyme-loonies" or "part of an anti-science movement that denies both the viral cause of AIDS and the benefits of vaccines," is hurtful and untrue. After all, questioning the value of research that keeps one locked in illness is hardly on par with denying HIV. The real science deniers are those circling the wagons around outdated studies, leaving patients desperate and sick while protecting their academic turf.
 
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A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
To resolve the mystery, the NIH commissioned similar experiments with rhesus monkeys. Instead of searching monkey blood for DNA after antibiotic treatment, the researchers would sacrifice the animals and scour their tissue for signs of the Lyme spirochete, including the RNA that is a surer sign of active disease. The monkey studies, published in 2012 by scientists at Tulane, document the presence of Borrelia burgdorferi DNA and RNA following aggressive antibiotic treatment. When uninfected ticks fed on those treated monkeys, they literally ingested intact spirochetes -- proof that the organism remained.

What paper does this refer to?
 

Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
What paper does this refer to?
A.B., there have been several Lyme studies with monkeys in recent years, a lot of them proving the incredible resilience of the borrelia spirochete. I think Pamela Weintroub is referring to this one:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029914
Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in Rhesus Macaques following Antibiotic Treatment of Disseminated Infection

Abstract
The persistence of symptoms in Lyme disease patients following antibiotic therapy, and their causes, continue to be a matter of intense controversy. The studies presented here explore antibiotic efficacy using nonhuman primates. Rhesus macaques were infected with B. burgdorferi and a portion received aggressive antibiotic therapy 4–6 months later. Multiple methods were utilized for detection of residual organisms, including the feeding of lab-reared ticks on monkeys (xenodiagnosis), culture, immunofluorescence and PCR. Antibody responses to the B. burgdorferi-specific C6 diagnostic peptide were measured longitudinally and declined in all treated animals. B. burgdorferi antigen, DNA and RNA were detected in the tissues of treated animals. Finally, small numbers of intact spirochetes were recovered by xenodiagnosis from treated monkeys. These results demonstrate that B. burgdorferi can withstand antibiotic treatment, administered post-dissemination, in a primate host. Though B. burgdorferi is not known to possess resistance mechanisms and is susceptible to the standard antibiotics (doxycycline, ceftriaxone) in vitro, it appears to become tolerant post-dissemination in the primate host. This finding raises important questions about the pathogenicity of antibiotic-tolerant persisters and whether or not they can contribute to symptoms post-treatment.
I mean, healthy lab ticks that fed on dead monkey meat still got infected with Lyme!!! And these were monkeys treated with antibiotics. This to me is TERRIFYING, like out of a bad 1950's sci-fi flick.

But by all means, let's keep pretending that a standard Elisa test and two weeks of antibiotics will take care of it. Not to get alarmist, but 300,000 new cases per year is an epidemic. Yet the NIH and the CDC, despite studies like this one --which THEY commissioned-- still apply and enforce the sub-standard IDSA guidelines. It's baffling.
 
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msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Antares, I didn´t realise that they used xenodiagnosis in the macaque study, that´s interesting. From my Reading of it though, the monkeys were still alive when the ticks fed on them (I would think it would be hard to convince a tick to feed on an animal that wasn´t alive or very recently deceased).
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Antares, I'm sure you and many other readers know this story, so I hope you don't mind if I write to it because it's one of those Lyme back-stories that help shape and characterize the landscape.

The macaque monkey study was done by Embers and company. It was released in 2012. But it was purportedly commissioned back in 1998 as a sister study to the famous Klempner study, which had been funded two years prior. The Klempner study reached conclusions that extended abx therapy was not beneficial to patients. One inference that many seemed to derive from this was that spirochetes did not survive recommended therapy.

The thing is, by the late 90's, the Lyme Wars were already on full throttle. Reportedly, at least in part to demonstrate opposing camps could work effectively together, mainstream researchers met with Lyme advocates to try to define and fund efforts that most could agree to. Mainstream Lyme researchers pushed the Klempner study. Advocates and their researchers promoted the monkey study. Supposedly the plan was to release the two studies in tandem, or at least reasonably close together.

The Klempner study reportedly was funded in 1996 and completed in 2001. The Embers study was funded only 2 years later, in 1998, as a response to the Klempner study, but its findings were not released until 2012, 11 years after its sister-effort. I'm not sure if anyone has ever satisfactorily explained the delayed release.

The import and message of the Klempner study had more than a decade to disseminate, to, in effect, take hold and spread without substantive refutation. To see findings go unchallenged and mature into dogma.

Of course, Monica Embers and friends demonstrated that spirochetes do survive after conventional treatment. To do this, they had to work directly with tissue, as opposed to the study of Klempner et al, which relied heavily on SF-36 survey results. But it's hard to make up for an 11 years' head start...
 
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