New Blog By Dr Jamie: The Myth of Vaccine Safety

[barbc56]

The likelihood of adverse effects from contacting a disease is far more likely than getting a vaccination.

I'm also pro truth or maybe I should say pro fact.

Barb

 

[duncan]

Yeah, I think it important to distinguish fact from truth. The problem with facts is they can be manipulated. The problem with truth is, that like "reality", it is often seen through a subjective prism.

A difficulty here is the vaccine debate is complicated by half-truths and suspect facts - and lots of disingenuousness. It's a difficult process to disentangle.

For me on a personal level, if data is being deliberately withheld about vaccines whatsoever, then there is cause for concern. I want all the information. I don't get the feeling we are getting that, so I am concerned. I appreciate the broad utility and safety net vaccines in general provide. But if there are risk factors that present at different ages of vaccine recipients, or with different adjuvants or other components, these risks should be spelled out for the consumer to wade through and make an informed decision. And I'm not confident that is being done.

Um, and I don't like anybody telling me I HAVE to put a foreign substance into me or mine. When the greater good for the overall population is really a function of a "majority", the group left out becomes a minority, and is subject to all the prejudices that any minority has historically had to endure.

So, yeah, overall I support vaccines. But on my terms, not on any governments. My terms are determined by vetted facts that encompass and span different camps, and truths that can bear the acid test of being absolutes.

 

[Butydoc]

Do people not remember the devastation caused by smallpox, polio, whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella etc. Back in the day, many many people lost their lives to these diseases. I remember having measles and mumps. It wasn't pleasant. Children these days don't have to suffer from these illnesses because of vaccinations. Nobody has ever claimed that vaccinations are 100 percent safe for everybody but scientific research has shown over and over that they don't cause autism.

It's really hard for me to swallow all the anti-vax stuff. Canada and the USA have very low rates of vaccine-preventable diseases, but this isn’t true everywhere in the world. The only disease that has been eradicated from the world is Smallpox. Polio no longer occurs in the U.S. due to vaccinations, but it is still paralyzing children in several African countries. More than 350,000 cases of measles were reported from around the world in 2011, with outbreaks in the Pacific, Asia, Africa, and Europe due to lack of vaccinations. In that same year, 90% of measles cases in the U.S. were associated with cases imported from another country. Only the fact that most Americans are vaccinated against measles prevented these clusters of cases from becoming epidemics.

I think saying that vaccinations are bad is forgetting the past thousands and thousands and thousands of deaths from smallpox, polio, measles etc.


View attachment 10472

I have to wonder why is all this anti-vax stuff consistently posted on Phoenix Rising as we are a site for ME/CFS.

Hi Kina,

It seems to me that the real question is wether someone with CFS/ME/SEID should be vaccinated? It appears that most people feel that our immune system is constantly turned on or acting abnormally. The fear, and mine included, is that the stimulation of the immune system by a vaccine would cause a crash or possible a worsening of symtoms which one might not recover from. There has been many patients with CFS/ME/SEID who claim this has happened to them and other that state that their disease started with a vaccination.

I'm trying to figure out if the cure, a vaccination, is worse than the disease,i.e. the flu. Dr Montoya's position is that if you are at baseline and not in a crash, then he would recommend the vaccine against the flu. On the other hand, if you are in a crash, then probably not. I'm still uncomfortable with this recommendation.

Best,
Gary

 

[Sushi]

It seems to me that the real question is wether someone with CFS/ME/SEID should be vaccinated? It appears that most people feel that our immune system is constantly turned on or acting abnormally. The fear, and mine included, is that the stimulation of the immune system by a vaccine would cause a crash or possible a worsening of symtoms which one might not recover from.

Yes, that might be the question. I know that my immune tests show that my immune system is constantly in fight mode, but it doesn't seem to be able to do much. Though I posted about my experience of the reality of living without childhood vaccinations, later in life (after I had early symptoms of ME) I had a huge number of "heavy-duty" vaccinations when traveling repeatedly to 3rd world countries. I did react very badly to these and do wonder if they impacted my immune system in some way.

I'm trying to figure out if the cure, a vaccination, is worse than the disease,i.e. the flu. Dr Montoya's position is that if you are at baseline and not in a crash, then he would recommend the vaccine against the flu. On the other hand, if you are in a crash, then probably not. I'm still uncomfortable with this recommendation.

I got a flu vaccine when I was at baseline and it caused a frightening crash. I haven't had one since--nor have I caught the flu--at least not in a way that I could detect, though I am suspicious that even though some of us are not able to "get the flu" in the normal way, we may get it in ways that are not typical, like an exacerbation of ME symptoms.

 

[barbc56]

It seems to me that the real question is wether someone with CFS/ME/SEID should be vaccinated?

Because of the possibility of some populations being more susceptible to vaccinations reactions as well as situations such as children getting chemotherapy, IMHO, it's even more important that others do get vaccinated.

Unfortunately, Dr. Jones seems to buy into all the anti vax propaganda and as you said the real question is whether our population should get vaccinated.

While anced It can be problematic to only rely on anecdotal information

 

[duncan]

Unfortunately, many of us have learned the hard way over our years of illness - and having been forced to educate ourselves - it also can be problematic to rely only on published research studies and conventional sources of medical authority.

 

[Iquitos]

Because of the possibility of some populations being more susceptible to vaccinations reactions as well as situations such as children getting chemotherapy, IMHO, it's even more important that others do get vaccinated.

Unfortunately, Dr. Jones seems to buy into all the anti vax propaganda and as you said the real question is whether our population should get vaccinated.

While anced It can be problematic to only rely on anecdotal information

Dr. Deckoff-Jones doesn't "buy into" anti vax "propaganda." She's educated enough to form an opinion and as a doctor has seen for herself how some are harmed by vaccines.

The cases won by victims of vaccinations and paid damages by the US government are not "anecdotal." Personally, I don't consider the statements of patients on PR and elsewhere to be merely "anecdotal" either.

It comes down to whether you think vulnerable people should be forced to risk their health and sometimes their lives in order to protect others.

There is also research showing, from the recent measles outbreaks, that many of the children who got measles HAD been vaccinated, another fact ignored by the authoritarians who want to force everyone into the same mold. The CDC even advised those recently vaccinated to stay away from those whose immune systems may be compromised, such as those having chemo "therapy."

 

[Valentijn]

Dr. Deckoff-Jones doesn't "buy into" anti vax "propaganda." She's educated enough to form an opinion and as a doctor has seen for herself how some are harmed by vaccines.

Appeal to authority doesn't work when the "authority" has displayed some stunning ignorance involving her own profession. Such as claiming that HIPAA doesn't apply for foreign patients who visit her in the US I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong about everything, but I have trouble taking her proclamations seriously, unless she has something substantial to back them up.

That said, there are some situations where vaccines are contraindicated based on scientific research and principles. ME/SEID, for example, has had several studies done where the flu vaccine provoked an immune reaction of indefinite duration which the study authors did not understand the reaction. And due to the reactionary anti-anti-vax sentiment created by overly broad anti-vax sentiment (in turn probably created by overly broad pro-vax sentiment), each paper heartily endorsed the flu vaccine for ME/SEID patients, right after confessing that something unpleasant and mysterious was happening.

I think a middle ground must be found, instead of each side getting progressively more extreme like they are now. Some progress has been made in moving some toxic substances from vaccines, which is a start. But people without a good reason to think that their children will react (such as due to prior reactions in the child or siblings, or parent reactions, etc) need to get over themselves. In those cases it's a matter of a tiny or nonexistent risk of vaccine reaction, versus a much larger risk of getting a very nasty disease which could cause death or permanent damage.

And researchers shouldn't be afraid to say "We don't know what's going on with this patient group in response to flu vaccines ... maybe it's not such a good idea to the vaccine until we know more." And even then we can still weigh the risks - crash or relapse versus a particular disease. The flu probably won't kill me, so I'll stay away from that vaccine. Other things could kill me or cause significant damage, so I'd probably get those vaccines (sans egg or preservatives if possible) if they were indicated.

 

[duncan]

Interesting, Valentijn. I know you are articulate about, and speak to Lyme issues. ME/CFS immune risks aside, would you take the new Baxter Lyme vaccine that is being trialed right now? Would you recommend it to people concerned about acquiring Bb?

I ask because I am conflicted about it myself. I have read various accounts as to what it is, including the vendor's description and the patent. I know Benjamen Luft has a stake in at least one new vaccine - and I think highly of him...

But I don't know. The last Lyme vaccine more than 10 years ago purportedly made some patients already infected with Bb sicker. Also, one has to be concerned about which strains would be covered - much like picking the right flu strain vaccine, only we trust authorities to get that right for us (and they got it wrong, big time, in the US this year).

Yet I have kids, and I'd want them safe, and I would not casually squander a tool that could protect them against even a single strain of Lyme...Still, there looms that risk for someone already infected. What if my kids, who each have been bitten by ticks many times, harbor a latent or asymptomatic Bb infection - would such a vaccination precipitate activating the Borrelia?

I am not asking you resolve the Lyme vaccine question for me. I am just putting it out there as an example.

I think the Lyme question I'm positing bring homes the need to research vaccines before we embrace them. How can we possibly do that with all the different vaccines and things being vaccinated against?

And that question doesn't even address the potential risk to undeveloped immune systems that characterize the very young.

 

[Valentijn]

@duncan - Actually I don't know much about Lyme in general. I wouldn't get the vaccine because I have already been exposed, currently live in a city, and have never seen a tick here.

 

[Iquitos]

Appeal to authority doesn't work when the "authority" has displayed some stunning ignorance involving her own profession. Such as claiming that HIPAA doesn't apply for foreign patients who visit her in the US I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong about everything, but I have trouble taking her proclamations seriously, unless she has something substantial to back them up.

That said, there are some situations where vaccines are contraindicated based on scientific research and principles. ME/SEID, for example, has had several studies done where the flu vaccine provoked an immune reaction of indefinite duration which the study authors did not understand the reaction. And due to the reactionary anti-anti-vax sentiment created by overly broad anti-vax sentiment (in turn probably created by overly broad pro-vax sentiment), each paper heartily endorsed the flu vaccine for ME/SEID patients, right after confessing that something unpleasant and mysterious was happening.

I think a middle ground must be found, instead of each side getting progressively more extreme like they are now. Some progress has been made in moving some toxic substances from vaccines, which is a start. But people without a good reason to think that their children will react (such as due to prior reactions in the child or siblings, or parent reactions, etc) need to get over themselves. In those cases it's a matter of a tiny or nonexistent risk of vaccine reaction, versus a much larger risk of getting a very nasty disease which could cause death or permanent damage.

And researchers shouldn't be afraid to say "We don't know what's going on with this patient group in response to flu vaccines ... maybe it's not such a good idea to the vaccine until we know more." And even then we can still weigh the risks - crash or relapse versus a particular disease. The flu probably won't kill me, so I'll stay away from that vaccine. Other things could kill me or cause significant damage, so I'd probably get those vaccines (sans egg or preservatives if possible) if they were indicated.

@Valentijn "I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong about everything, but I have trouble taking her proclamations seriously, unless she has something substantial to back them up."

Would this "proclamation" be substantial enough for you?
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ost-vaccine-syndrome.29389/page-2#post-579634

"Need to get over themselves." ???? People have had their children taken away by child "protective" services, or threatened to be, for choosing not to vaccinate even with very good reasons. Where's the "middle ground" when this kind of bullying is going on?

Babies being required to get hepatitis vaccinations and preteen girls being told get the HPV vaccination or we won't let you go to school -- people making and enforcing laws like that are who need to get over themselves.

 

[duncan]

Aach, my brain sometimes.

I appreciate not getting the vaccine if you live in a city. And if you don't travel to endemic areas, ever.

Not getting it because you have been exposed is a bit of a gamble, though, because a) the verdict is out on the theory that prior exposure to a given strain protects you against it in the future, and b) you've no idea what particular strains will be heading your way. But that brings us back to what strains are even covered. Sigh.

The mechanism of the vaccine isn't really vaccine-like. The vaccine agent travels from the human into the tick and disables Borrelia in the tick's midgut, before it ever can infect the human. Supposedly.

ETA, relative to Jamie: Some might say she is unorthodox. She appears uncomfortable with dogma, and I kinda admire her for that. She offers alternative perspectives that sometimes make readers uneasy and force them to think.

These can be good qualities in an advocate or clinician.

 

[Ecoclimber]

Aach, my brain sometimes.

I appreciate not getting the vaccine if you live in a city. And if you don't travel to endemic areas, ever. Not getting it because you have been exposed is a bit of a gamble, though, as you've no idea what strain will be heading your way. But that brings us back to what strains are even covered. Sigh.

The mechanism of the vaccine isn't really vaccinish. The vaccine travels from the human into the tick and disables Borrelia in the tick's midgut, before it can infect the human. Supposedly.

ETA, relative to Jamie: Some might say she is unorthodox. She appears uncomfortable with dogma, and I kinda admire her for that. She offers alternative perspectives that sometimes make readers uneasy and force them to think.

These can be good qualities in an advocate or clinician.

The vaccine if effective only treats for B. burgdorferi. EDIT: Meant to say that the C6-based ELISA test, which is widely used in Europe and can detect as many as18 species of the Borrelia bacterium not that There are 18 species of the Borrelia bacterium. There are also other tick bacterial species Anaplasma phagocytophilum, Babesia microti. Borrelia garinii, B.bissettii, Hartland Virus and more. The bottom line, it doesn't protect for all the other bacterial species and has side effects to those that have a genetic pre-disposition.

I posted more on this thread for those interested
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lyme-disease-eludes-doctors-for-a-year.31652/

Here is a history of the vaccine if you can believe the name for it.

Nature Medicine
Resurrecting the 'yuppie vaccine'
Cassandra Willyard Nature Medicine
Published online 07 July 2014 Corrected online 22 September 2014 Correction (October, 2014)

The only vaccine ever approved to protect against Lyme disease was pulled off the market in 2002, and drugmakers have yet to offer an alternative. What's taking so long? Cassandra Willyard investigates.

 

[duncan]

Yeah, there are 36 species of Borrelia, of which only a handful have been demonstrated to be pathogenic to humans. Last count that I am aware of, there were over a 100 strains. Each strain potentially boasts its own twist or peculiar symptom cluster - I say potentially because the testing, by strain, has never seemed all that important to many of the past or present researchers charged with characterizing the spirochete. The strain most everybody gets tested for is B31. Which is ironic because the 2T testing protocol embraced by the CDC and imported out to lots of other countries, was built around a totally different strain, i.e., strain G39/40.

The vaccine would only work, if it works, on Borrelia Burgdorferi sensu lato - which would include, btw b garinii and b afzelii, if I understand correctly. Oh, and of course Bb sensu stricto, aka Lyme, whose most infamous strain is B31. But it would not defend against any other TBDs that include viruses and parasites and rats and cats and things.

Good article, Ecoclimber, backed by suspect sources, at least in my book. The reason, incidentally, the CDC in the US has come forward with the big mea culpa admission that US annual cases were NOT 30,000, but instead 300,000, may have little to do with better calculators, and more to do to generate market need for a next-gen vaccine.

 

[sianrecovery]

My health decline began with the 3 stage Hep/A shots I had to have as a requirement of the occupational health department in the trust I worked in. I am not saying there was a causal relationship between the two events; there was certainly an associative one. To me, this thread speaks eloquently to the underlying paradigm of fear, distrust and marginalisation of anyone who offers dissenting or even questioning views on vaccine safety. And do those who advocate for universal vaccination approve of the moves of the Australian government to withdraw money from parents on benefits who refuse to vaccinate their children? To me, it is the worst kind of health politics - shrill, discriminatory, and entirely devoid of intellectual curiosity.
People talk as if vaccination saved the developed world from disease, and as if the developing world can have the same miracle if only Bill Gates manages to vaccinate them all. Which is historical fantasy. The real health gains in the twentieth century came from adequate nutrition, sanitation, labour laws, improvements in housing and some control of the obvious industrial pollutants.
If we can't talk about this stuff on PR, then where can we?

 

[natasa778]

To me, this thread speaks eloquently to the underlying paradigm of fear, distrust and marginalisation of anyone who offers dissenting or even questioning views on vaccine safety.
...
If we can't talk about this stuff on PR, then where can we?

Absolutely to the point. You'll like this article, the most eloquent and in-depth one on the subject I have come across

The presentation of this issue has been a study in just how easy it can be to generate mass hysteria around a particular threat – even while much more serious threats inspire no such response.

 

[Mij]

Contaminated vaccines is what is of real concern to me. When we should be vaccinated is also important. I had several vaccines soon after my onset when I was still symptomatic. Doctors need to be educated about this.

Immunizations and CFIDS/ME and FM
Dr. Hyde emphatically stated that “immunizations save lives, and are better than all the doctors in the world put together”, but cautioned that doesn’t mean they are problem-free. His concern centered on two: recombinant hepatitis B immunization and the rubella immunization. Dr. Hyde also spoke to the issue of contaminated immunizations around the world and how they can possibly trigger CFIDS/ME/FM illnesses.

He has personally seen some very ill, bed-ridden patients as a result of the recombinant hepatitis B immunizations, causing disautonomia― the dis-connect between the brain and the ability to maintain normal pressure in peripheral arteries.

Dr. Hyde explained how the rubella immunization can cause rheumatoid arthritis. If a pregnant woman has not had the vaccine, she cannot receive it while pregnant because it will cause harm to her unborn child. When Dr. Hyde started in practice, the current wisdom of the day then was to give the immunization immediately after childbirth to both the mother and child. If the mother was breast-feeding, a sensitivity to, not immunization from rubella would develop in the child. If the child was a boy, nothing happened to the child. If the child was a girl, and she received a booster for that vaccine in grade 8 (in Canada), she could go on to develop an internal auto-immune reaction which then could develop into rheumatoid arthritis. Dr. Hyde pointed out that this is 12-14 years after the initial insult to the body.

Contaminated Immunizations. Dr. Hyde discussed some of the issues around immunizations that have been contaminated and still go to market. For example, during 2004-2005 some batches of the flu vaccine manufactured by Chiron Labs in England became tainted with Serratia Marcescens. The US and Canada bought vaccines made in England because they were cheaper. Even though the company informed the buyers about this contamination, the US and Canada continued to use the immunizations for 6 more months. Dr. Hyde feels many people probably got ill with CFIDS/ME after this.

Immunization and travel start date. Dr. Hyde emphatically told the audience that when preparing for travel abroad, particularly following and during trips to third world countries, “NEVER get an immunization and then travel immediately. Always allow 30 days between the injection and the travel plans to allow the immunization to take effect.” He explained that if, by chance, you got on a plane the week following the immunization, and sat next to someone with a minor virus, your immune system may not be able to fight it off and you could end up becoming chronically ill with CFIDS/ME. A virus plus an immunization do not mix well. He reiterated that acute ME is usually not detectable by routine examination and only a SPECT, BEAM or PET scan can pick up the encephalopathy.

 

[sianrecovery]

Thanks for that article Natasha, excellent read.
I doubt if anyone here is arguing against vaccination per se - but given the hugely expanded schedule of vaccinations for pregnant women, very young children and throughout adulthood, we can't just write a blank cheque of 'vaccination good, those who are fearful of its long term effects, bad - although that is pretty much what's happened.

 

[sianrecovery]

1. Hepatitis B vaccine and risk of autoimmune...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17192842

1. Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf. 2007 Jul;16(7):736-45. HepatitisBvaccineand risk of autoimmune thyroid disease: a Vaccine Safety Datalink study.

1. Lupus & R.A. - Vaccine Safety
www.vaccines.net/lupus.htmCached

HepatitisB Immunization Linked to Autoimmune Rheumatic Diseases Two abstracts being presented at the 62nd Annual Meeting of the American College of Rheumatology ...

2. Rheumatic disorders developed after hepatitis B ...
o rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org
o › Volume 38 Issue 10
To obtain an overview of rheumatic disorders occurring after hepatitisBvaccination. ... increase in the incidence of autoimmunedisordersfollowing...

 

[sianrecovery]

Sorry. Still rubbish at links.