Done reading PLAGUE by Dr. Judy Mikovits

[free at last]

None of us can know the full extent of another person's motivations but I've got no reason to doubt him. Lipkin is a virus hunter and, if there is a new virus to be found, then I'm sure that his scientific curiosity, along with his care for patients, combined with an academic ego, and his self-interest would drive him towards uncovering it. The virus particles that he detected were found in equal measure in both patients and controls which indicates contamination. Even so, I'd be very surprised if he hadn't followed it up with some further private investigations of his own to see what he's detected. He's in it for answers.

Yeah cheers Bob. it has to be above board. I am just getting paranoid I think. its easy to with this illness, and all the vested interests and the like. But I think he is trustworthy

 

[Lou]

I realize I'm heading off topic here but I've always had a question with regard to these outbreaks. Whether it's Tahoe-Truckee or Royal Free, how could the spread of such an apparently infectious pathogen just stop at a gymnasium, a staff room, or a hospital? Even if it was communicated slightly wider than this, why wouldn't it spread throughout the entire region?

To me, a total layman, it seems the environment was more important than the human to human contact. Doesn't this favour a toxin, or a pathogen like those that cause Legionnaires' Disease, to be responsible?

While this proves nothing I have to come down on the side of human to human contact. In 1984 I lived in Lake Tahoe and one day drove over to Incline Village to ski. While sitting at a bar having a beer the guy next to me mentioned he'd just gotten over the worst, by far, case of flu he'd ever experienced. It's certainly not inconceivable that he may have coughed or sneezed while we chatted. Or maybe not, doesn't matter.

Very soon afterwards I came down with the worst case of flu, by far, I'd ever experienced. Me/cfs set in at that point. Coincidences happen all the time, but I think that guy innocently enough changed my life by simply not staying put in his house a little longer.

 

[beaker]

I realize I'm heading off topic here but I've always had a question with regard to these outbreaks. Whether it's Tahoe-Truckee or Royal Free, how could the spread of such an apparently infectious pathogen just stop at a gymnasium, a staff room, or a hospital? Even if it was communicated slightly wider than this, why wouldn't it spread throughout the entire region?

To me, a total layman, it seems the environment was more important than the human to human contact. Doesn't this favour a toxin, or a pathogen like those that cause Legionnaires' Disease, to be responsible?

There is also the thinking ( or was back in the day ) that it was a 1-2 hit. That the cause was something that needed another infection to trigger it. Usually thought the cause was perhaps dormant. So if you only had one piece of the puzzle you didn't get sick. Well a lot of speculation. But during the outbreaks that was the thought.

Late, Probably not the best time to try and explain...... hope it made some sense.

 

[natasa778]

The virus particles that he detected were found in equal measure in both patients and controls which indicates contamination.

That is just not good enough.


I don't know about Lipkin's motivations, but this tunnel-mindedness is why we are in this mess (don't mean ME exclusively).

I'd be very surprised if he hadn't followed it up with some further private investigations of his own to see what he's detected.

That would be very bad in my book if he did that. This thing is far too important to be followed up in private, without discussing intent/motivation and results!

 

[Bob]

I'd be very surprised if he hadn't followed it up with some further private investigations of his own to see what he's detected.

First of all, let me clarify, that I don't know if Dr Lipkin is following up his retroviral particle findings. I'm just guessing that he might be interested in following leads, seeing as that's what he does as a career. A highly successful career.

Lipkin reported his results re the retroviral particles; so he was upfront about it. He could have kept the info to himself if he'd wanted to. Now he's getting accused of all sorts of conspiracies because he was honest. What's that all about? If he was part of a conspiracy to shut down retroviral research, then I reckon he might have been canny enough not to report those findings!

That would be very bad in my book if he did that. This thing is far too important to be followed up in private, without discussing intent/motivation and results!

I can't work out what you mean. This is what all researchers do; They follow leads in private. You only get to hear about it when they publish. And given how Judy Mikovits got treated when she went public, would you recommend that other researchers start extensive public discussion about human retroviruses before they've uncovered any evidence for them?

The virus particles that he detected were found in equal measure in both patients and controls which indicates contamination.

That is just not good enough.

Do you mean it's not good enough that he found viral particles in equal measure in patients in controls? Or its not good enough that this suggests contamination? I don't understand what you mean: If that's what he detected, then that's what he detected. He can't invent his research outcomes.

 

[natasa778]

Do you mean it's not good enough that he found viral particles in equal measure in patients in controls? Or its not good enough that this suggests contamination?

Just deciding that it is contamination and/or not relevant, just on the basis of it being present in equal measure in patients and control, is not good enough. To put it mildly.

 

[Bob]

Just deciding that it is contamination and/or not relevant, just on the basis of it being present in equal measure in patients and control, is not good enough. To put it mildly.

I'm not sure if Dr Lipkin has ever said that? Or are you referring to my interpretation?

 

[Ecoclimber]

The book should be listed in the Fiction section of a bookstore under Fantasy or Science Fiction

 

[natasa778]

I'm not sure if Dr Lipkin has ever said that? Or are you referring to my interpretation?

To your interpretation.

(Saying that I infer the same thing from what he has been saying and doing, so my interpretation is close to yours

And what he has been saying and doing leaves me with the feeling that this big project, if it happens, will lead to another dead end. We'll likely end up with bits of clues that won't account to much when put together.

 

[barbc56]

The book should be listed in the Fiction section of a bookstore under Fantasy or Science Fiction

And certainly not under general science as scientists with integrity don't stubbornly wed themselves to a theory in the face of subsequent valid science disputing your hypothesis. They move on. Nor do they make leaps of logic generalizing their results to other patient groups, some who rely on unscientific premises and giving out medical advice before the science is even replicated.

It's just not professional behavior.

Of course this is my personal perspective of the events surrounding the xmrv studies. Others may have a different view.

Barb

 

[anniekim]

What do people make of this blog post http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/plague-update-xmrv

Edit: I've just seen earlier in this thread @Kati helpfully sharing 'Lipkin also found retro viral sequences in the healthy controls at about the same rate as the patients with ME therefore it was not considered significant.' So is the author (I know he co-authored the Plague book) of the blog post I posted above being a bit disingenuous? Or is he claiming was only Montoya's samples that showed 85% of samples showed retrovirus? Sorry a bit confused

 

[Bob]

So is the author (I know he co-authored the Plague book) of the blog post I posted above being a bit disingenuous?

It's a good question. Whatever way we look at Lipkin's findings, if he found the same level of viral particles in patients and controls, then it indicates absolutely nothing useful. It may be worth further investigation in terms of general interest, but it seems highly unlikely to be significant for ME/CFS. The only possible scenarios I can think of are as follows: It could potentially indicate contamination, or perhaps they're endogenous retroviral particles, or perhaps it's an unknown virus that is present in the entire population. But the first scenario (contamination) would be irrelevant, and the other two scenarios would be highly unlikely to be relevant to ME/CFS unless by the most extraordinarily unlikely coincidence. If he'd detected viral particles at different levels then that would be a different story.

 

[anniekim]

Thanks @Bob for your helpful reply

When the author refers to Montoya samples, did the study include only samples from Montoya or from other doctors as well, thanks?

 

[Bob]

When the author refers to Montoya samples, did the study include only samples from Montoya or from other doctors as well, thanks?

I can't remember any details about this. There is information about Lipkin's findings somewhere on the forum. e.g. this blog might answer your question:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/lipkin-finds-biomarkers-not-bugs.25234/

 

[roonie]

We are turning a huge corner in the world of disease folks......there are thugs that dont want to see it happen....they are the evil forces in the world and need to be stiffled

 

[anniekim]

Lipkin also found retro viral sequences in the healthy controls at about the same rate as the patients with ME therefore it was not considered significant.

I totally hear you on this @Kati but on a Facebook M.E forum there are people still arguing this 'As far as I know Lipkin found 85% in the Montoya patient samples. Mikovits and Lo/Alter found about 6% in the healthy controls and this is for sure one reason why it was not pursued.' I am still totally confused can you or anyone else explain? Many thanks

 

[Bob]

I totally hear you on this @Kati but on a Facebook M.E forum there are people still arguing this 'As far as I know Lipkin found 85% in the Montoya patient samples. Mikovits and Lo/Alter found about 6% in the healthy controls and this is for sure one reason why it was not pursued.' I am still totally confused can you or anyone else explain? Many thanks

Lipkin found the same levels in patients and controls, which suggests he detected something other than a causal agent. (e.g. it could be contamination or cross reactivity.)

In the original study by Lo/Alter, different rates were detected in patients and controls which indicates a potentially significant finding and definitely something worth following up. Lo/Alter did follow up their research in the study that Lipkin supervised. Along with Mikovits, neither of them were able to replicate their original findings. (Some would say that it wasn't a true replication study, and that they weren't given a fair chance to replicate their original research.)

When people say that the low rate detected in the Lo/Alter healthy samples is the reason why the research was not followed up, I suspect that they are suggesting that the research was suppressed for political reasons. i.e. that the results suggest something very significant but the authorities don't want the public to know about a new retrovirus causing ME, so they've suppressed further research.

In my opinion, there was an obvious effort to shut down the XMRV media storm, and they used flawed research to justify their dismissal of XMRV. But if there was a new human retrovirus out there, I can't see how they could possibly keep a lid on it for long. Retrovirologists around the world would be itching to make a new discovery.

 

[anniekim]

Thanks Bob, really appreciate your measured thoughts

 

[GoWest]

Lou, off topic, but how much do you think toxic mold played a role in the Incline Village outbreak? Do you live in a home free from mold at this time? Second comment, I read "Plague" and found it very difficult to sort out in terms of the science. But I think there is clearly some retrovirus going on. You have about 5% of healthies carrying a retrovirus, and 85% of us sickies. This was true for Mikovits' studies and Alter and Lo's studies. They were not looking for the exact same retroviruses, but the same family. Will anyone in the world keep looking? Maybe not. Seems everyone who even gets near this notion of infection causing ME/CFS gets crucified.