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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Messages
31
Are you getting kickbacks from Miyarisan? (j/k)
So what effects has this probiotic produced? Details please.

I started taking this week, AOR3 + Prescript Assist + S Boulardii twice daily.
Compared to last week, my physical and cognitive symptoms improved by approximately 60-70%.
I'm not drawing any conclusions here as this could be coincidental timing with an up cycle of my condition. Meaning, I could just be having a good week regardless of the probiotic influence. In 2-3 weeks I should know more.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I've been doing some reading lately about oxalates, kidney stones etc which I struggle with. It turns out there is a harmless Gram-negative anaerobic bacterium living in our guts, Oxalobacter formigenes, which degrades oxalate in the intestine. Colonisation with this bacterium is associated with a lower likelihood of developing calcium oxalate stones.

The independent researcher Susan Costen Owens has done an enormous amount of work on oxalates, particularly in autism. Some of this is summarised on her website www.lowoxalate.info and a lot more is scattered through files in the associated Yahoo group, Trying Low Oxalates. I made a summary of many of the pertinent points for another purpose, so I'll upload the document for you to look at.

As you note, many people have problems with the oxalates in food because antibiotics have wiped out the gut bacterium Oxalobacter formigenes which preferentially digests oxalate. Currently it is not available as a probiotic, though clinical trials are underway. Some strains of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium can step into the breech, though it is not their preferred food. VSL 3 is one probiotic that has been shown to be able to digest oxalate. Undigested oxalate is taken up into the body further along the colon and it can accumulate throughout. It is a metabolic poison and the body tries to get rid of it by simply dumping it into the skin, bowel and urine, but it travels down a concentration gradient, so blood levels need to fall before this can happen. Interestingly there appears to be some sensing mechanism whereby cells will not dump their accumulated oxalate into the gut unless there are oxalate-digesting bacteria present. Thus a compounding problem can arise as the body accumulates this metabolic poison for want of appropriate dispersing mechanisms in the gut.

There are a couple of rare genetic conditions where oxalate is manufactured endogenously because of defects in a couple of enzymes. However what Susan Owens and others have discovered is the much more common situation where people become endogenous producers despite having normal enzymes. The predisposing condition appears to be prolonged oxidative stress which damages the B6 dependant enzymes involved and sets up a self-perpetuating process of oxalate accumulation. Everyone on this board should be very thoughtful about this possible consequence of prolonged oxidative stress.

Once oxalate starts accumulating, then many B6, B1 and biotin dependant enzyme systems become compromised and a cascading array of other metabolic pathways get deranged, most notably energy pathways, methylation, trans-sulfuration, glutathione recycling, to name just a few.

Oxalates on an OAT test often reflect the body's handling of dietary oxalate and the normal process of dumping of accumulated material. Only the OAT test done by Great Plains Laboratory looks at three oxalate markers (glyceric and glycolic acids, as well as oxalate) and is capable of giving insight into whether endogenous oxalate production has become an issue (though Susan doesn't necessarily think that they interpret it properly).

Food for thought for all.

With best wishes
Alice
 

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Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Some strains of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium can step into the breech, though it is not their preferred food. VSL 3 is one probiotic that has been shown to be able to digest oxalate.

Many thanks for the summary, Alice. I would just add that Bacillus subtilis possesses oxalate decarboxylase so perhaps another reason for me to circle back to Prescript Assist.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
So what effects has this probiotic produced? Details please.
I don't know how many details I can give you at this time. As said, the CB has improved symptoms relating to energy, standing tolerance, PEM, etc. It seems to have highly reduced the malaise and feeling of sickness that I normally have.

Also there has been a feeling of slight overstimulation, like high catecholamines.

Finally, it seems I have had a constant head cold since starting it, things are pouring out of my nose and my lymph nodes in the neck feel slightly sore.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Timescale question!

When any of you have tried out new probiotics (or prebiotics), how long did it take you to see any benefits (or downsides)?

When I started with PS, I saw rapid improvements in digestion but didn't see improvements in OI for about six weeks.

I'm thinking of trialling some new things one at a time but am wondering how long I should give each thing.
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Timescale question!

When any of you have tried out new probiotics (or prebiotics), how long did it take you to see any benefits (or downsides)?

When I started with PS, I saw rapid improvements in digestion but didn't see improvements in OI for about six weeks.

I'm thinking of trialling some new things one at a time but am wondering how long I should give each thing.

@Sasha It should give only slight inflammation, and this inflammation should pass by within several weeks or months, and change into improvement. With the first improvement you could increase the dosage, up to the point, where you again have a slight inflammation, that passes by again with time.

Try first a tiny tiny amount (only a pinch). An immediate negative reaction means a no go, and means trying it again in a few weeks or months.

Inflammation is necessary to increase the immunity, but the dosage makes the poison.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
@Sasha It should give only slight inflammation, and this inflammation should pass by within several weeks or months, and change into improvement. With the first improvement you could increase the dosage, up to the point, where you again have a slight inflammation, that passes by again with time.

What's the rationale behind wanting to provoke inflammation?

Is this the approach others have been taking, or have people just been taking a dose that doesn't provoke bad symptoms and sticking with it? And if so, what sort of timescale has it taken to see good stuff happen?
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
What's the rationale behind wanting to provoke inflammation?

Is this the approach others have been taking, or have people just been taking a dose that doesn't provoke bad symptoms and sticking with it? And if so, what sort of timescale has it taken to see good stuff happen?

Without inflammation changes in the body cannot happen. The body needs inflammation to get rid of toxins. The dosage of the fibre or probiotic should be only very small, to react with very slight inflammation.

You could realize worsening symptoms, and simultenously better symptoms, maybe your joints hurt, and you have brain fog, but you have a better digestion. This lasts a few weeks (3-4), then joint hurt and brain fog is less, digestion is still better, but also energy and mood is better. So you have the maximal benefit of this dosage of the supplement, and you could think about the next step.
 
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jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Is that widely accepted? That's a new one on me (which isn't to say that it's not true).

Immunity functions in this way. Wound healing also functions so: when a foreign body enters the wound, it inflames to get rid of it.
The Th1/Th2 response of immunity also functions similar: Th2 recognizes the foreign body, Th1 inflames, to get rid of it.
Even when we eat, we are in a very very slight condition of inflammation: the body gets rid of the food toxins. For this reason Jaminet recommends to eat not to high amounts of a sort of vegetable, as each sort of vegetable produce separte natural pesticides.
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
With the first improvement you could increase the dosage...The dosage of the fibre or probiotic should be only very small
Are you referring to prebiotic or probiotic? Or both/either? Are you really saying we should be looking to induce inflammation? Or is inflammation just one marker? I'm on naltrexone, which has certainly affected my inflammation. Should I still be using inflammation as a marker? My inflammatory symptoms are mostly brain, and I'd not like to think I' should be living with these symptoms over weeks or months.:eek:
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Sasha @jepps @Sidereal Sorry if this is mentioned earlier in the thread but can Prescript Assist probiotic actually help to regulate and normalize someone's blood pressure?

I want to post an update of my entire latest saga (not in this thread!) but the part that is relevant for here is that recently I started Prescript Assist (in addition to re-starting a low dose of Midodrine- only 1.25 mg to try to raise my very low BP.) The Midodrine is working unbelievably well to the point that my BP reached 106/75 and is hitting over 100 systolic the last few days which is unheard of for me. It is also helping me to breathe better.

But here is my question. Yesterday I only took one Midodrine instead of two (and later had some other problems that I will post elsewhere) but this afternoon after 26-27 hours since the last Midodrine dose, my BP was still 100/65. Midodrine is supposed to be effective for only four hours so it should have been out of my system completely by this point yet my BP was still high (for me) and I was baffled as to why.

My husband (who has read much more of this thread than I have and done some other research) said that Prescript Assist can normalize your BP and he thinks this is what is happening for me (in addition to the Midodrine of course.) Has this happened to anyone else? I am noticing that my rings are much tighter on my fingers and today I did not even need to take any salt stick tablets or drink Vitalyte (just plain water.) Is this something documented in other people and will it last?

ETA: There was another thread where I mentioned trying beet root but I stopped that after only 1-2 days on Midodrine and it did not appear to be having any effect on me- good or bad- and I do not believe it is playing any role in this issue.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Are you referring to prebiotic or probiotic? Or both/either? Are you really saying we should be looking to induce inflammation? Or is inflammation just one marker? I'm on naltrexone, which has certainly affected my inflammation. Should I still be using inflammation as a marker? My inflammatory symptoms are mostly brain, and I'd not like to think I' should be living with these symptoms over weeks or months.:eek:

As has been discussed in many places in this long thread, particularly in the detailed posts by @Vegas, there are consequences when we try to change the composition of the gut flora. Stimulating expansion of some populations leads to displacement of others. This can provoke immune responses, including inflammation. When gram negative species are displaced, LPS can be released. If you have a leaky gut this can easily get into the lymphatics and possibly the systemic circulation, with very nasty effects.

Different people have different responses to the various pre and probiotics discussed on the thread but some such as raw potato starch seem to provoke quite nasty side effects in some people, including strong inflammatory and lymphatic reactions.

The advice to start low and slow with any prebiotic or probiotic is a general precaution until you gauge your own response. It does seem that with time, one becomes more tolerant.

There is some suggestion that mucilaginous prebiotics might actually stimulate anti-inflammatory bacterial populations and so are a good place to start. @Sidereal has some experience with this.

My own rule of thumb for assessing various pre and probiotics is as follows (always starting very low)
1) If some improvement in some symptoms, probably accompanied by tolerable inflammatory/lymphatic effects, continue, increasing as side effects allow.
2) If no effect one way or the other, try again later in case something else needs to be in place before an effect can be seen. If still no effect later, discontinue.
3) If immediate adverse effect, stop and try again much later, very cautiously. Probably this means I really, really need this agent but it is too soon for my body to tolerate it.

With best wishes
Alice
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Are you referring to prebiotic or probiotic? Or both/either? Are you really saying we should be looking to induce inflammation? Or is inflammation just one marker? I'm on naltrexone, which has certainly affected my inflammation. Should I still be using inflammation as a marker? My inflammatory symptoms are mostly brain, and I'd not like to think I' should be living with these symptoms over weeks or months.:eek:

@ahmo I understand you very well. I have children and a job, side effects must be tolerable.

As @ariel posted, I learned from @Vegas posts, and also from my doctor and the blogs of Chris Kresser, that there will be no change in immunity without immune response and therefore inflammation.

I speak of prebiotics or probiotics, both can trigger a response of the immune system. If the symptoms are not tolerable, then I would first stop, and after a few weeks I would try it again with a smaller dose.
I had immune responses, what means inflammation, to all of these supplements, but they went away, and then I improved. I test with kinesiology, this gives me a help for dosages.

For me brain fog, that lasts, would be a sign, that immune response is to strong. Maybe the frontier of tolerable side effects is, that we are not restricted in our activities, but we have SLIGHT symptoms like headache, joint pain, swindle, paraesthesias.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Sorry if this is mentioned earlier in the thread but can Prescript Assist probiotic actually help to regulate and normalize someone's blood pressure?
Yes, your gut health has profound effects on your autonomic nervous system.

People keep getting shocked how important the gut is to their health.
 
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jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
@Sasha @jepps @Sidereal Sorry if this is mentioned earlier in the thread but can Prescript Assist probiotic actually help to regulate and normalize someone's blood pressure?

I want to post an update of my entire latest saga (not in this thread!) but the part that is relevant for here is that recently I started Prescript Assist (in addition to re-starting a low dose of Midodrine- only 1.25 mg to try to raise my very low BP.) The Midodrine is working unbelievably well to the point that my BP reached 106/75 and is hitting over 100 systolic the last few days which is unheard of for me. It is also helping me to breathe better.

@Gingergrrl I take Prescript Assist and fibres since more than a year now, but I have the definitive changing in blood pressure and heart rate since taking the full RS + fibres. I had a heart rate of 100-120 in the morning and a blood pressure of 80/140, since Prescript Assist+RS+fibres I have a heart rate of 70-85 and a blood pressure of 80/120.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
With regard to inflammation, perhaps we can say that it is a necessary evil, rather than something to specifically strive for. It is simply necessary for the immune system to do its job.

It is unlikely that we will see improvements in immune function and pathogen load without some accompanying inflammation, however unpleasant it might be.
 
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