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23andme & Chronic insomnia and family history of psychiatric/CNS disorders

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
Messages
1,287
Location
k8518704 USA
@Sherlock ill look into that when i get back home.

Turns out The spine is not bent where the impact was.i was reading the xray wrongly. So this must be genetic.

I am trying to find out if there is a connection between methylation and glutathipne depletion and scoliosis or ligament laxivity? Do you have any idea? Cant find anything on this
Sorry, I don't know that answer. But there is an association between CFS and Connective Tissue Disorders such as EDS: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-tissue-disorders-ehlers-danlos-syndrome.123/
 
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Messages
211
more than one year has passed since I first started trying to understand my problem.
i think I have this thing: adrenal fatigue.
My hormones are all out of whack. Either stress induced or from finasteride usage a long time ago. either way I am suffering and lost out on life many years that I will never get back.
I tried to remedy my insomnia with mirtazapine, in the end I think it made things worse.

I suspect I have low cortisol, which is kind of making me hypothyroid. So i asked the doctor for exams and here's the results:

IGF-1 289.7 [82.0-246.0] OVER LIMIT
Prolactin 14.96 [4.04-15.20] LIMIT HIGH
TSH 4.390 [0.270-4.200] OVER LIMIT
FT3 3.42 [2.00-4.40]
FT4 13.77 [9.30-17.00]
LH 4.87 [1.7-8.6]
17-Beta Estradiol 35.8 [47,7-60,7] UNDER LIMIT
FSH 3.47 [1.5-12.4]
Cortisol Saliva 00.15 AM 3.71 [0.8-1.2]
Testosterone total 6.16 [2.49-8.36]
Free Testosterone 16.0 [8.9-42.50]
SHBG 45.3 [10.0-57.0] ELEVATED
17-Alpha Hidroxi Progesterone 4.3 [0.59-3.44] OVER LIMIT


Please comment! Thank you !!
 
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Messages
211
@drob31 sorry to bother, but maybe we have some similar issue (well...prob with cortisol and adrenals), maybe you could comment on these values I just got and what I should be aiming to test next?

According to your salivary samples of cortisol, my nighttime cortisol is almost 4x what it should be. But according to my high 17-alpha-progesteron in the morning, I'm assuming it's low (though I have nothing to prove it yet). This would fit the fact that I can't fall back asleep after 4-6 hours of sleep...

I'm planning to test next:
- cortisol at 6am (or when waking up at night), cortisol at 12am, 3pm, 6pm, 00.00...
- T3/RT3
- 11-DeoxyCortisol
- Total serum cortisol
- 17-OH progesterone
- androstenedione
- excluding CAH
- excluding pituitary tumour...
- exclude hashimoto's
- thyroid anti bodies


what else would you test? thanks for the help!!
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
more than one year has passed since I first started trying to understand my problem.
i think I have this thing: adrenal fatigue.
My hormones are all out of whack. Either stress induced or from finasteride usage a long time ago. either way I am suffering and lost out on life many years that I will never get back.
I tried to remedy my insomnia with mirtazapine, in the end I think it made things worse.

I suspect I have low cortisol, which is kind of making me hypothyroid. So i asked the doctor for exams and here's the results:

IGF-1 289.7 [82.0-246.0] OVER LIMIT
Prolactin 14.96 [4.04-15.20] LIMIT HIGH
TSH 4.390 [0.270-4.200] OVER LIMIT
FT3 3.42 [2.00-4.40]
FT4 13.77 [9.30-17.00]
LH 4.87 [1.7-8.6]
17-Beta Estradiol 35.8 [47,7-60,7] UNDER LIMIT
FSH 3.47 [1.5-12.4]
Cortisol Saliva 00.15 AM 3.71 [1.2 - 14.7]
Testosterone total 6.16 [2.49-8.36]
SHBG 45.3 [10.0-57.0] ELEVATED
17-Alpha Hidroxi Progesterone 4.3 [0.59-3.44] OVER LIMIT


Please comment! Thank you !!

Based on your reference ranges, are you female? I'm basing that on the testosterone and estrogen reference ranges, although it doesn't show the measurements used.

Your estrogen is low and progesterone is high, and IGF1 is high.

In any case the cortisol value is the most concerning, but the TSH is also high. Your body is possibly trying to compensate for the low cortisol by increasing TSH.

There's allot you'd need to work through, and raising your estrogen should theoretically raise your cortisol. If these imbalances aren't caused by a chronic condition, you may be able to get bioidentical replacements for the cortisol, but that should be the last thing you should try, after exhausting other options, and doing more testing.

Your further testing looks good, maybe add a few things:

Autoimmune screen: ANA with anti-nuclear DNA
CBC with differential (very important)
Vitamin D 25-hydroxy
Vitamin D 1,25 hydroxy
B12
Iron panel with ferritin
 
Messages
211
Hi @drob31

I found your comment about pregnancy being female very interesting since im thinking if thisncould be estrogen dominance that resulted from finasteride usage a long time ago. I do have real gyno,very minor and if i squeeze the nipple liquid white comes out, very little but it does.

That being said, im male.

I edited the post to add free testosterone.

I just came back from the gp who as usual said everything looked fine but check to with the endocrinologist and try amilsupride. I will not try amilsupride, my gp is an idiot as this will further raise prolactin 8-10x higher than now. The gp didnt give me additional tests and didnt give me low dose hydrocortisone.

I have endo appointment next week, 9th april and will order tests.

Any idea what kind of doctor would prescribe me those exams?

Any idea how can i low igf1? Maybe it could helpy hairloss.. Ive been thinking of cutting meat for a long time now...
 
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drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Hi @drob31

I found your comment about pregnancy being female very interesting since im thinking if thisncould be estrogen dominance that resulted from finasteride usage a long time ago. I do have real gyno,very minor and if i squeeze the nipple liquid white comes out, very little but it does.

That being said, im male.

I edited the post to add free testosterone.

I just came back from the gp who as usual said everything looked fine but check to with the endocrinologist and try amilsupride. I will not try amilsupride, my gp is an idiot as this will further raise prolactin 8-10x higher than now. The gp didnt give me additional tests and didnt give me low dose hydrocortisone.

I have endo appointment next week, 9th april and will order tests.

Any idea what kind of doctor would prescribe me those exams?


You're high levels of prolactin could potentially cause that. 3 things are required for lactate production; estrogen, progesterone, and prolactin. High levels of prolactin in males can cause this, as well as the fatigue you mentioned. Dopamine agonists would help with that. And if you're scared of those, you could try something like Norival, which is tyrosine + bh4 (rate limiting enzyme for dopamine conversion).

There could be a pituitary involvement based on the high levels of igf1. I don't see the free testosterone, what does that look like?

Your estrogen is low, but is that the male estrogen sensitive measure, or regular? I doubt estrogen is the problem.
 
Messages
211
Estrogen is, I think, the sensitive one: Electrochemiluminescence or Electrogenerated Chemiluminescence - ECL.

I called the lab and said to check the cortisol ranges, I thought they were wrong. Now they sent me back the new report: cortisol is 3 times above range.
Cortisol Saliva 00.00am 3.7ng/mL [0.8-1.2]

Thats why I cant sleep and am loosing hair :(

I have update the values again in the post to include the cortisol range. But anyway, here's the:
Free testosterone is 16.0 pg/mL [8.9-42.50]

Do you have a Norival product that you recommend?

Is it possible my high cortisol is making me produce too much RT3, which is blockin T3 receptors and creating Thyroid Hormone Tissue Resistance ? This condition wouldn't be resolved until I broke it with exogenous T3, as this is a negative feedback system. I have drawn a chart, I will post it...
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Just a few weeks ago I noticed citalopram was blocking my T3 replacement when I was trying to up my T3 dosage.

Then I spent like 20 days titrating citalopram down and got rid of it and T3 is doing the whole job.

Perhaps that is something to look into, that some medication is interfering with T3 function.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Estrogen is, I think, the sensitive one: Electrochemiluminescence or Electrogenerated Chemiluminescence - ECL.

I called the lab and said to check the cortisol ranges, I thought they were wrong. Now they sent me back the new report: cortisol is 3 times above range.
Cortisol Saliva 00.00am 3.7ng/mL [0.8-1.2]

Thats why I cant sleep and am loosing hair :(

I have update the values again in the post to include the cortisol range. But anyway, here's the:
Free testosterone is 16.0 pg/mL [8.9-42.50]

Do you have a Norival product that you recommend?

Is it possible my high cortisol is making me produce too much RT3, which is blockin T3 receptors and creating Thyroid Hormone Tissue Resistance ? This condition wouldn't be resolved until I broke it with exogenous T3, as this is a negative feedback system. I have drawn a chart, I will post it...


Yes, your high cortisol can cause cellular resistance to thyroid hormone, other hormones, and even cortisol itself. Generally something is driving it high or causing the dysregulation. If you can fix that, you fix the hpa-axis.

I'm having the same issue, but I'm looking at an autoimmune condition as the culprit, with possible hypoercoagulation / dysautonomia / circulation issues. My theory is that my cortisol is high because of inflammation, and the autoimmune attack would cause systemic inflammation. Of course high cortisol is associated with cushing's, but generally if you have a maladapted rhythm or even close to normal rhythm, and your levels are peaking and dropping, that rules it out. This is because in cushing's cortisol would always be high (usually.) So this concept of it following a pattern yet being high is sometimes referred to as pseudocushings. The cause is idiopathic, meaning it's unknown, but something is causing it to run high. Perhaps it's autoimmune, or lyme, or viral, etc.

I tried using t3, and ironically I had moments of clarity, especially when I used stimulants. However, I would always have a bad crash and it seemed to drive my cortisol levels even higher. I attribute this to my hpa-axis being incapable of handling it. It almost seemed like it increased my autoimmune activity.
 
Messages
211
I wonder if your cortisol spike at six is because of something you ate lunch or something you touch..an allergy...as for me, i have a theory. Mind you i took finasteride 9years ago.

I am posting what i have posted on solvepfs.com

If you want to read the full thread follow the link

http://solvepfs.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=403&p=5402#p5402


My next step is to get more exams:
- T3 and RT3
- 24hour urine Catecholamine test
- cortisol 3 or 4x a day in saliva
- possibly total serum cortisol
 
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Messages
211
Estradiol increases TBG. I didn't know that. And then of course, you will be hypothyroid. Cortisol will perpetuate the whole thing...

Cortisol is metabolised into 5-alpha tetrahydrocortisol (5-alpha THF) and 5-beta tetrahydrocortisol (5-beta THF), where 5-alpha reductase is involved. That's prob why propecia elevated cortisol. Cortisol will then keep you hypothyroid by reducing T3 and increasing RT3. (On a side note: May be that cortisol elevates 5alpha reductase too ?? this would explain slightly high IGF-1 that I have, through conversino from DHT. This would mean hairloss comes from cortisol and is possible to loose hair from stress through DHT...merck has been hiding this from people to sell finasteride! you should just..destress)

When you increase RT3 it will block the receptors of T3. And this will be perpetuated until you do something about it. This will cause something called: Tissue resistance to thyroid hormones.

The high cortisol from finasteride will stress your adrenals and until they put up with it you will remain hypothyroid and this represents the first stages of adrenal fatigue.
The crash comes when the adrenals can't hold it anymore and switch from cortisol production to adrenaline and noradrenaline!!!

I was under stress from hairloss and school when I started propecia. Then side effects from propecia came in, made stress much worse. One year later after quitting, I was feeling stressed with school again and because my mother was holding me down from doing some stuff i wanted to. One day, I was programming until 6 am, and then my neighbour woke me up with loud noises at 8am and was impossible to sleep again because of the noise. The next day the same thing, and the following. Then I crashed, couldn't sleep more than 3 hours in a row at night, heart jumping out of my chest when my head hit the pillow...etc. That was the adrenals stressed out, they started pouring adrenaline and noradrenalien because they couldn't make anymore cortisol, from exaustion over time.

The adrenals for sure need to be healed.. My GP actually agreed with me on the need to give a rest to the adrenals. They have been running a marathon all this time.
Then the thyroid hormones -needs to be addressed of course. We need to completely shutdown RT3 production to clear it up. That will take a few weeks, around 6... THen the system will have rebounced! We will be good!!

Whatever propecia did, is not doing so anymore, so 5arII is back in place, even if slightly readjusted, because other hormones are out of balance! When they come into balance everything falls into place.

I think it's really important to test all the parameters for the thyroid and adrenals.

I think we are suffering from equivalent toResistance to Thyroid Hormone, together with adrenal fatigue. Doctors never check forResistance to Thyroid Hormone, its a rare condition.
http://content.spineboy.com/view.php?p= ... %20Problem

Some people felt good on selenium some on zinc... I think it will be helpful to get selenium+zinc+copper, since these are involved in the T3 conversion.

Our hormones look good on paper but they aren't being produced the way they should and they are being compensated because nature designed our system like this, with negative feedback mechanisms, this will keep us alive but make us feel like shit because even though the system hasnt shutdown, it's not running straight. it's not a matter of androgen desentization and whatever...Doctors don't believe us because hormones look fine, but they aren't fine. They have been readjusted all this time!

My opinion is that the most important tests are: RT3 and Cortisol in saliva. Then they should believe us.


There's some studies citing that cortisol remains elevated in depressed people after remission. This would perpetuate hairloss and would put you at risk for further depressions. The most predictive factor in having depression is that you had a depression before!
 
Messages
211
Yes, your high cortisol can cause cellular resistance to thyroid hormone, other hormones, and even cortisol itself. Generally something is driving it high or causing the dysregulation. If you can fix that, you fix the hpa-axis.

I'm having the same issue, but I'm looking at an autoimmune condition as the culprit, with possible hypoercoagulation / dysautonomia / circulation issues. My theory is that my cortisol is high because of inflammation, and the autoimmune attack would cause systemic inflammation. Of course high cortisol is associated with cushing's, but generally if you have a maladapted rhythm or even close to normal rhythm, and your levels are peaking and dropping, that rules it out. This is because in cushing's cortisol would always be high (usually.) So this concept of it following a pattern yet being high is sometimes referred to as pseudocushings. The cause is idiopathic, meaning it's unknown, but something is causing it to run high. Perhaps it's autoimmune, or lyme, or viral, etc.

I tried using t3, and ironically I had moments of clarity, especially when I used stimulants. However, I would always have a bad crash and it seemed to drive my cortisol levels even higher. I attribute this to my hpa-axis being incapable of handling it. It almost seemed like it increased my autoimmune activity.
This i very jnteresting.as over at PFS community we have several reports of momentary 100% recoveries, short lived (weeks), when introducing hormones or even some supplements.
I also think jt can be the immune system.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
This i very jnteresting.as over at PFS community we have several reports of momentary 100% recoveries, short lived (weeks), when introducing hormones or even some supplements.
I also think jt can be the immune system.

Right now, In my case, it appears to be autoimmune related, but it's not being classified that way because it doesn't meet enough criteria to be one, but it borrows from a few different ones.

What are you current symptoms, again?
 
Messages
211
Well, my symptoms are:

DEBILITATING: Insomnia and consequent fatigue. waking up after 4-6 hours of sleep. I think this is adrenaline due to low cortisol, as I have had since when this started, racing heart when i go to bed. nowadays that's better but still...i felt many times adrenaline spikes.

ANNOYING: Libido is not so good... Sexual organ sensitivity varies between medium and low... motivation is not good either... still have minor gyno from finasteride usage, you can't see it, but it's there, i did ultrasound and i can feel it..if i squeeze the nipple something comes out, white.
No morning erections anymore, since two years.

I suspect adrenal fatigue, and consequently thyroid issues, but I don't know the cause:
- I have not discarded depression, though I dont feel depressed, except if I dont sleep.
I do feel lack of energy and some ammotivation. this could come from prolactin which is in the limit..but not high enough for doctor to listen to me.

- i do feel stressed or lets say, snapping easier than i should, but i have no logic reason to be stressed... i think...

- I have not discarded possible damage of finasteride, though next week I'll measure 3adiolG which is the best marker for androgenic activity. most PFS people have this very low

- i am looking into glycolysation and glucogenesis, gluconeogenesis, impairment...as well as the melovanate pathway
 
Messages
211
My IGF-1 is high, and I have a theory for this. I need your help to refute it or otherwise I'll be testing my blood this week again.

Assumption:
Igf1 and dht are in a negative feedback loop.

What happens:
1- Finasteride blocks dht, negative feedback loop responds by increasing igf1.
2 -This extra igf1 binds to insulib receptors at 10% affinity of insulin, and ends up driving expression of insulin receptors down to reach homeostasis again.
3 - Less insulin receptors means a change in glucose homeostasis. Not enough glucose will drive adrenaline up to compensate.
4 - More adrenaline means less cortisol.
5- Less cortisol drives TSH up and prolactin up.
6-This Prolactin rise decreases dopamine.

My fasting glucose is at around 80...i think that's borderline hypoglycemic. I have not hypoglycemia reactions except for early morning insomnia, getting faints when getting up from sofa and especially in the morning, i swear one day i'm gonna fall and break something. and now that i mention it, today i slept pretty well and i don't remember having those faints! yesterday the same, I slept well and no faints..these last few days i have been eating more sugar, nocoffee, and no bananas...hmm :/

i think it's worth a shot to check this out with blood exams.

Even if it wasn't finasteride wasn't guilty, I think I can apply this theory the same way to my IGF-1.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Have you had a cortisol diurnal test done (4x saliva / DHEA)?

Sleep is a really important thing to fix.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
My IGF-1 is high, and I have a theory for this. I need your help to refute it or otherwise I'll be testing my blood this week again.

Assumption:
Igf1 and dht are in a negative feedback loop.

What happens:
1- Finasteride blocks dht, negative feedback loop responds by increasing igf1.
2 -This extra igf1 binds to insulib receptors at 10% affinity of insulin, and ends up driving expression of insulin receptors down to reach homeostasis again.
3 - Less insulin receptors means a change in glucose homeostasis. Not enough glucose will drive adrenaline up to compensate.
4 - More adrenaline means less cortisol.
5- Less cortisol drives TSH up and prolactin up.
6-This Prolactin rise decreases dopamine.

My fasting glucose is at around 80...i think that's borderline hypoglycemic. I have not hypoglycemia reactions except for early morning insomnia, getting faints when getting up from sofa and especially in the morning, i swear one day i'm gonna fall and break something. and now that i mention it, today i slept pretty well and i don't remember having those faints! yesterday the same, I slept well and no faints..these last few days i have been eating more sugar, nocoffee, and no bananas...hmm :/

i think it's worth a shot to check this out with blood exams.

Even if it wasn't finasteride wasn't guilty, I think I can apply this theory the same way to my IGF-1.

I'm not sure about this theory. 80 is far from hypoglycemic. Also, my IGF-1 is middle-high normal, and my DHT is normal/high.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Are you loosing hair by any chance?

Yeah, it sheds, but seems to grow back, since I don't really have bald spots, maybe a little thinner.

I think hormone dysfunction is leading to early anagen cycles. However this could also be an effect of DHT.

What I notice is that my scalp feels intensly itchy like a mysquito just bit it. When i pull my hair in that area, hairs come out. Some times it comes in waves, like a bunch of areas, and sometimes it's just one spot.