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Daily Mail - yoga cures myalgic encephalomyelitis

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,270
Location
UK
If it was just a case of boosting our immune systems, most of us would of done that by now and be cured! I wish cure was that easy.

I was a health freak when I developed ME, organic foods etc etc. I studied at a naturopathy collage at the time. I did all I could to boost my immune system when I first became sick and this ME still managed to get a hold (though in my own case it did take a while before it got a full grip on me and became an ongoing permanent like illness).

I never said it was easy - obviously one's lifestyle when coming down with it had not been sufficient to prevent it. Many people think they eat healthy organic etc but make the mistake of eating gluten, dairy or other things or are exposed to toxins. Naturopathy colleges are not necessarily up to date on nutrition. Some of us need much more intervention in order to get the immune system to heal than what is generally understood.

It is easy to give up instead of continuing to seek for answers.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
The people who count in advancing the field of ME/CFS are the scientists, and I would have thought that these are not people who are going to be influenced by such rare occurrences as an ME/CFS remission from yoga, from changing diet, or suchlike. Scientists think in terms of statistical weight of evidence, and the occasional story here and there of remission is not going to carry much weight in the scientific mind.
I think that we as well-informed patients are now also contributing significantly to the advancement of ME science, increasingly in a mutually-beneficial collaboration with research scientists. Of course a serious scientist won't be influenced by articles such as the ones discussed.

But the public are, and they are the ones we meet - our friends, families, benefits staff, health professionals, and so are the politicians. These have profound effects on our lives.

I know that you are sceptical about the malign influence of the Science Media Centre in their role of spreading stories like these in the UK, but I don't think most of us are.
 
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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
My personal view is that on a damage scale of 1 to 10, newspaper articles in which "scientists" like Simon Wessely put forward their view that ME/CFS is psychogenic would score 10 out 10 for damage. Obviously the public listen scientific opinion on medical matters, and since Simon Wessely on paper sounds like he is a reputable scientist, his view will carry a lot of weight in the media, both among doctors and the general public.

Similarly, studies like the PACE trial, which used the dirty trick of redefining the word "recovery" just so that they could say that GET/CBT led to recovery, get a 10 out of 10 for damage.

Whereas media articles that report single anecdotal stories of ME/CFS recoveries or amelioration from dietary changes or yoga get a 1 out 10 score for damage, if that.

Stuff that is in-between might be things like the Lightening Process, which I might give a 4 out 10. The Lightening Process hints that ME/CFS is an "all in the mind" condition which is damaging, but because it is not a scientifically validated therapy, it does not carry the same weight as something like PACE.

You seem to assume that everyone is intelligent and differentiates between different sources of information as you or I do.

My everyday experience is that they are not, and they do not. A high proportion of people will give similar weight to an article by Joe Bloggs quoting Sue Smith and Fred Jones as to one quoting Professor Sir Forbes-Richardson PhD MPhil MBE etc.

They will give similar weight to online articles by self-styled 'online doctors'/ 'experts' as to articles in reputable scientific publications.

The world is full of 'Crazy Mirandas'.
 
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alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
In the meantime, we simply can't know. People with these miracle cure stories may actually have the illness and these therapies worked for them (if not the rest of us who have tried them). Or they could have something else more amenable to such treatments.
We should not forget many of these stories are about people being helped, not cured. Yoga may well assist some. I cannot know for sure. The times when I have something to object about are when they make overblown claims.

For example, in a different context, I have no issues with someone using meditation for ME, to assist in coping. Yet when I encounter over-hyped and unsubstantiated claims then I say something, and sometimes this can provoke a hostile response. To claim meditation might help is fine. To claim it might help an individual is fine. To claim a cure requires well conducted and replicated scientific research. Its a very different thing.

I see no reason why yoga does not fall into this category.

Media tone though can be very damaging. To use @Hip analogy, if a psychogenic article does ten damage points, and a social spin of no authority does one, and using this simplistically, then such social media stories are probably hundreds of times more damaging than psychobabble on its own to the social conception of ME. This is because they are repeated and repeated, copied etc. They also tap into exist prejudices and other social stories, including from biopsychosocial proponents, and government scaremongering about wasted money etc.

Let us not ignore what is happening in the UK to the disabled, and which some in other countries, including Australia, seem to think is a good idea.

Psychogenic claims however are much more damaging to research as they create a climate in which funding for quality biomedical research is harder to get.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Likewise, sometimes you hear in the newspapers that people get a miraculous a spontaneous remission from an incurable cancer. Such stories do not suddenly make people think that cancer is a trivial disease that is easy to overcome.
Context. Cancer is considered a serious disease with an unacceptably high death rate. If however the context is of what many consider to be a community of scroungers, lazy good-for-nothings, mentally challenged, the undeserving sick, etc., etc. ,such things might have a very different impact.

Pre-existing perceptions alter how a message is received. Few do the investigation to go deeper and find the facts.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
So what? Can not many virus infections do that?

Hip was never a patient of Dr.Chia but he apparantly diagnosed him online? Without distinctive PEM there is not such thing as "M.E lite" or whatever else anyone wants to throw in the basket.

http://www.enterovirusfoundation.org/aboutev_mid.shtml

"Enteroviruses are associated with at least 26 different syndromes and diseases, including coronary heart disease, type 1 diabetes, hand-foot-and-mouth disease, chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis, encephalitis, herpangia, myocarditis, pleurodynia, ADHD, and central nervous system infections such as polio, meningitis, encephalitis, chronic meningoencephalitis, and acute flaccid paralysis. It is possible for an enteroviral infection to result in a multi-organ illness or a series of illnesses in different organs spanning several years."
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Hip was never a patient of Dr.Chia but he apparantly diagnosed him online? Without distinctive PEM there is not such thing as "M.E lite" or whatever else anyone wants to throw in the basket.

http://www.enterovirusfoundation.org/aboutev_mid.shtml

"Enteroviruses are associated with at least 26 different syndromes and diseases, including coronary heart disease, type 1 diabetes, hand-foot-and-mouth disease, chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis, encephalitis, herpangia, myocarditis, pleurodynia, ADHD, and central nervous system infections such as polio, meningitis, encephalitis, chronic meningoencephalitis, and acute flaccid paralysis. It is possible for an enteroviral infection to result in a multi-organ illness or a series of illnesses in different organs spanning several years."

Is there any evidence that enteroviruses actually play a role in the aetiology (causation) of these illnesses? From a quick look at the list, many (all?) are also associated with gut dysbiosis of some kind, which may allow pathogenic (or indeed benign) viruses to take up residence, multiply, etc. It could be that the gut dysbiosis takes hold before the enteroviruses, and have a role in the aetiology of the illnesses, whilst the enteroviruses don't. Just theorising.
 

redviper

Senior Member
Messages
145
My personal view is that on a damage scale of 1 to 10, newspaper articles in which "scientists" like Simon Wessely put forward their view that ME/CFS is psychogenic would score 10 out 10 for damage. Obviously the public listen scientific opinion on medical matters, and since Simon Wessely on paper sounds like he is a reputable scientist, his view will carry a lot of weight in the media, both among doctors and the general public.

Similarly, studies like the PACE trial, which used the dirty trick of redefining the word "recovery" just so that they could say that GET/CBT led to recovery, get a 10 out of 10 for damage.

Whereas media articles that report single anecdotal stories of ME/CFS recoveries or amelioration from dietary changes or yoga get a 1 out 10 score for damage, if that.

Stuff that is in-between might be things like the Lightening Process, which I might give a 4 out 10. The Lightening Process hints that ME/CFS is an "all in the mind" condition which is damaging, but because it is not a scientifically validated therapy, it does not carry the same weight as something like PACE.

lol, what a fascinating and arbitrary determination of the value / damage of each media article does to the ME community. Do you come up with your methodology for assessing the value and impact of each piece, or are these just more likely uneducated guesses made by an individual with no real understanding of the reality of the situation? Your posts further prove the need for proven biomarkers for this disease to determine who is actually suffering from different subsets of this illness.
 
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Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
A friend of mine is a patient of Dr.Chia and he has seen many CFS patients with this virus through stomach biopsy.

http://www.enterovirusfoundation.org/associations.shtml
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) - also known as Chronic Fatigue and Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS) and Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME)
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) is a complex and debilitating illness that affects the brain and multiple body systems. Symptoms include widespread muscle and joint pain, cognitive difficulties, chronic, often severe mental and physical exhaustion and other characteristic symptoms in a previously healthy and active person.

A recent study found VP1, RNA and non-cytopathic viruses in the stomach biopsy specimens of CFS/ME patients with chronic abdominal complaints. A significant subset of CFS/ME patients may have a chronic, disseminated, non-cytolytic form of enteroviral infection, which could be diagnosed by stomach biopsy.

For more information:
Chia, JKS, Chia, AY;(2008), "Chronic fatigue syndrome is associated with chronic enteroviral infection of the stomach," Journal of Clinical Pathology 2008;61:43-48.

I'll try to find that study.

Dr. Byron Hyde also believes enterovirus plays a role in M.E. He refers to it as a sub polio type virus that affects a subgroup of patients, the incubation period for enterovirus follows the same time period of M.E epidemics
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
lol, what a fascinating and arbitrary determination of the value / damage of each media article does to the ME community. Do you come up with your methodology for assessing the value and impact of each piece, or are these just more likely uneducated guesses made by an individual with no real understanding of the reality of the situation? Your posts in this thread are troll quality and just further prove the need for proven biomarkers for this disease to determine who is actually suffering from different subsets of this illness.

I think that post is rather unkind. I know that you don't actually accuse @Hip of being a troll (he definitely isn't) but you do skirt a little close.

Can't you just agree to disagree?
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
But 2 of those friends are now dead.

@beaker

I'm so sorry. Ido get it. I understand where you are coming from and am frustrated. while it is always a good thing when someone regains their functioning it does zip for me in terms of giving me hope until there is some treatment that will work for me.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I never have and I've never tried rigorous pacing either - let alone heart rate based exercise - which includes, by the way, checking your heart rate at the beginning of each day to determine whether you did too much the past day...That seems like quite a good test.

@Cort, I honestly am not sure how much a heart rate monitor is accurate for pacing in someone who has severe dysautonomia and takes a beta blocker? This is not a criticism of you or of pacing (which I believe in) but is a genuine question on my part.

The tone of message in the media is an issue though. I do not agree it does not matter. I do not agree its only about the scientists. The science is about the research, about leading to a cure. The media tone is about the disbelief, the ignorance, the prejudice and stereotypes. Its in that mix of ignorance that simple but irrational claims like some of the biopsychosocial claims can gain influence. This then flows into politics.

@alex3619 Well said, and I totally agree, as usual! The average person is not reading the newsletters from our ME specialists and gets their info from the mainstream media which reports things such as "Yoga, diet, exercise, etc, cures CFS." This is a very dangerous message IMO but I don't need to re-hash all of that.

So might their switch to vegetarianism have prevented them developing full ME/CFS?

I was a very strict vegetarian for 12 years and it did not prevent me from getting ME/CFS. I know there are people on this board who are very ill from ME who range from vegan to Paleo to ketogenic diet. I definitely believe that dietary issues can affect other aspects of our illness if one has IBS, SIBO, food allergies or intolerances, Celiac, etc, but again is not the cure IMO.

Dr Chia diagnosed my virus as an enterovirus

I have not seen Chia in person, nor have I had the enterovirus tests, which I find a bit too expensive.

@Hip, I know this is going off-topic but I find it strange that Dr. Chia would diagnose someone on-line that he has never seen, examined, or even done the basic blood test panel for enteroviruses by ARUP. When I quote my ME specialist who I have seen in person three times and done extensive blood work, I am so unbelievably careful not to ever mis-quote or mis-represent anything that he has said to me. I don't see how one of our specialists would just diagnose someone on-line with no testing? Is this really how Dr. Chia works? I am partially asking b/c he is in my basic area and if my second ARUP test is positive, I considered seeing him but if he diagnoses people on-line with no testing, it makes me think that everyone gets the same diagnosis from him no matter what. My doctor is meticulous to only say I am positive for the viruses which I actually test positive for from his own testing.

I used to read such stories in the The CFIDS Chronicle -- "I climbed a mountain and was cured." "I moved to an island and lived on island time and was cured "( one of my favorites) my PWME friends and I used to laugh at them. They were so ridiculous to our experience of the illness. And you either laugh or cry. But 2 of those friends are now dead.

@beaker, I am so sorry for the loss of your two friends and fully understand where you are coming from re: this issue.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
The thread is now open for posting.

Please avoid personal attacks, rudeness, and inflammatory remarks.

Thank you.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
Do you come up with your methodology for assessing the value and impact of each piece, or are these just more likely uneducated guesses made by an individual with no real understanding of the reality of the situation?

The latter. Mine are uneducated guesses. But then I suspect everyone's opinions expressed on this thread (regarding how much damage these publications cause) are likely uneducated guesses made with no real understanding of the reality of the situation, because as far as I am aware, nobody has access to empirical evidence demonstrating the damage that these publications purportedly produce. Everyone is guessing.



Media tone though can be very damaging. To use @Hip analogy, if a psychogenic article does ten damage points, and a social spin of no authority does one, and using this simplistically, then such social media stories are probably hundreds of times more damaging than psychobabble on its own to the social conception of ME. This is because they are repeated and repeated, copied etc. They also tap into exist prejudices and other social stories, including from biopsychosocial proponents, and government scaremongering about wasted money etc.

You make an interesting point there.

Even if such articles were known to cause harm, then it becomes a philosophical issue: of freedom of expression and factual truth, balanced against political expediency. There will be many opinions on what is best.

Myself, I tend to believe that stories should not be censored just because they represent an inconvenient truth. Even if these stories are politically problematic, if they are also true, and you start censoring truth, you never know when you might suppress a vital piece of information.

In the case of these yoga remission stories, they have got me thinking and reading about cerebrospinal fluid flow, and pondering how its stagnation might possibly be worsening ME/CFS symptoms. So I found the yoga stories a provided interesting clues, and I would not like such factual information to be suppressed.



It may not damage the cause, it may very much damage the individual. Apparently you have not been bed ridden and had a family member snip such an article out of the paper/ print off the net and throw it in your face.

I have had my fair share of ignorant and insensitive remarks and suggestions from friends and family.

The solution to this problem I think is educating these friends and family members, which unfortunately takes time, but eventually helps, I have found.

I don't think the solution is press censorship or blog article censorship, which is what some people here are suggesting. In my view, censorship and suppression of truth is not a good thing.

Unless of course you are totalitarian dictator, in which case, you tend to view censorship as a wonderful tool!



These stories are clearly rarities and should be presented as such.

It's certainly true that such remission stories are rarities, but that's the case for many ME/CFS treatments.

For example, in his conference presentations Dr Chia talks about his patients who went from bedbound to back to work in a matter of months due to oxymatrine. Now I don't doubt that this occurred in some relatively rare cases, but as we know, most people on this forum who have tried oxymatrine either get no benefits, or relatively mild benefits.

But nobody is angry at Dr Chia for presenting his best success stories.

And this applies to many ME/CFS drug treatments: often we hear of the most spectacular success cases first, but only learn the what a treatment does for the average ME/CFS patient latter.

In the present state of medical interventions, the full remission cases will always be rarities, but most experienced ME/CFS patients can read between the lines, and will understand they are unlikely to get full remission, but may well get some welcome improvements from a treatment.



The world is full of 'Crazy Mirandas'.
Great song, I had not heard that one.
 
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eafw

Senior Member
Messages
936
Location
UK
Cort's commitment was to provide access to any treatments that worked in the hopes that if they worked for one person somebody else might benefit.

Fortunately for eafw, eafw has addressed this nonsense before, in this very thread even, and so eafw can just cut and paste their previous reply

"I think that people are mistakenly crediting what they actively did (eg Yoga) rather than what they "inactively" did (ie rest) or had little control over by the point they got ill (genetics, immune response and so on)

So people will say "I cured my ME with yoga/carrot juice/chicken soup/meditation/learning to knit/living in a house where all the walls are painted blue" when actually it wouldn't have mattered what they chose - apart from decent rest, and being lucky enough to have practical support and an immune profile that was able to settle down when it wasn't being continually pushed.

Fair enough if yoga is a tool that people use to help them maintain a restful state when they need it and then build up strength when they are able. But that's all it is, and certainly not "and now everyone else should do this too" which generally gets tagged onto these recovery stories as well."


some people who are very ill do recover using these means

No, some people who are very ill recover. They then ascribe their recovery to some random activity or ritual, which at best has replaced another more destructive activity (ie pacing rather than push- crashing) but which in and of itself can not be shown to have been the sole or main means of recovery

However, it happened

In the article, which I did read, it says this person is 71 years old. You may as well say "Man cures ME with old age", in fact it would actually be a more credible theory bearing in mind the way the immune system can work.

there are many ways that people have recovered.

Again, there are things that people who have recovered will point to, things they happened to be doing at the time. Back to your interviewee, he may well have joined a choir or taken up birdwatching, found he got better over time and then said that was part of his protocol.

Good "human interest" story but no other meaningful benefit to it really.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
Again, there are things that people who have recovered will point to, things they happened to be doing at the time. Back to your interviewee, he may well have joined a choir or taken up birdwatching, found he got better over time and then said that was part of his protocol.

Assuming your argument were correct, it would also apply to the thousands of threads on this forum in which ME/CFS patients have posted their accounts of symptomatic improvements, sometimes very significant improvements, that occurred at the same that they were taking certain drugs, supplements and other treatments.

So does this mean you take dim view of these accounts of improvement posted on this forum, and are you saying that there is no reason whatsoever to think that the improvements were due to the drugs, supplements and other treatments? Are these forum accounts all worthless in your view?
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
I don't think censorship is a good idea either. However one or two polite comments as to the reality after a piece that is a bit hyped is a good idea.

Definitely. Providing a statistical perspective on the successes and failures of a treatment is a good idea, and good information to have. This is not always done in articles (sometimes because the statistical information is not at hand).

In the case of yoga, this study cited earlier found some improvements in fatigue levels of the 15 ME/CFS patients in the yoga trial, and a couple of the patients noted pain relief, but nothing more than that. So for the average ME/CFS patient, that's what you might expect from yoga: reduced fatigue, but you are very unlikely to experience remission.
 
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eafw

Senior Member
Messages
936
Location
UK
Assuming your argument were correct, it would also apply to the thousands of threads on this forum in which ME/CFS patients have posted their accounts of symptomatic improvements, sometimes very significant improvements, that occurred at the same that they were taking certain drugs, supplements and other treatments.

This morning I woke up and it was dark, and I was thirsty. I got up, had a drink and went back to bed. Some time later the sun came up and I was no longer thirsty.

1) the sun came up because I had a drink of water,
2) drinking water in a specific mug at half past five in the morning is what makes the sun come up
3) I was thirsty because it was dark
4) I was no longer thirsty when the sun had risen because daylight cures thirst
5) drinking water can generally quench thirst

One of these things is not like the others ....
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
I haven't read the whole of this sorry thread or the Daily Mail article, but just to say I was practicing Yoga and meditation, healing, candida, gluten free diets etc etc for many years before getting M.E - now at mod/severe I can physically stretch a little, but every attempt at doing so over the past 7 years has resulted In crashing - even if I only do two gentle stretches every three days.

I miss not being able to do yoga enormously.