when to implement the Cutler protocol

[pemone]

That's really interesting about the mercury, I will have to read more about the Cutler protocol. I've had another blood test done that my doc sent to some lab in Europe for metals and the only one high was lead, though the rest of mine were on the highest side of normal. I know this was a blood test though and not cellular membrane. Since this whole disease is in my brain I need to research more what could be happening with mercury and other metals in my brain

The only test that will show you what is happening in your brain is called an autopsy. Seriously, they would have to biopsy brain tissue to test mercury levels there. Not happening....

Like you I got testing for blood and hair separately, but that was a mistake. I should have ordered the Mercury Tri-Test. There are multiple reasons why this test has no competition and is uniquely useful:
1) It differentiates organic and inorganic mercury
2) It has much higher precision levels.
3) They do cross calculations comparing blood to hair and urine to hair to determine how well your liver and kidneys dispose of the mercury. That's the critical piece actually and no one else reports that!!

I'm cycling back and ordering Tri-Test now, to establish a baseline before detox, and I'll probably repeat that test multiple times in 2015.

 

[Aerose91]

The only test that will show you what is happening in your brain is called an autopsy. Seriously, they would have to biopsy brain tissue to test mercury levels there. Not happening....

Like you I got testing for blood and hair separately, but that was a mistake. I should have ordered the Mercury Tri-Test. There are multiple reasons why this test has no competition and is uniquely useful:
1) It differentiates organic and inorganic mercury
2) It has much higher precision levels.
3) They do cross calculations comparing blood to hair and urine to hair to determine how well your liver and kidneys dispose of the mercury. That's the critical piece actually and no one else reports that!!

I'm cycling back and ordering Tri-Test now, to establish a baseline before detox, and I'll probably repeat that test multiple times in 2015.

I simply can't afford any tests anymore so once I get done with the bulk of methylation I'm going to move forward assuming I have a heavy metal problem. I will most likely implement the Cutler protocol at that point.

 

[pemone]

I simply can't afford any tests anymore so once I get done with the bulk of methylation I'm going to move forward assuming I have a heavy metal problem. I will most likely implement the Cutler protocol at that point.

The mistake in that thinking is you won't have any baseline against which to establish that a given detox therapy works. The point is to know whether your problem is inorganic or organic mercury, and to also know which disposal system(s) (liver or kidney) are not working efficiently. You can try IMD Powder and Cutler for six months and then test again. You might discover that your blood concentrations went UP and not down, in which case therapy needs adjustment.

Without concrete data to establish presence of a disease and progress against the disease, you are like a person with a blindfold who is told to clean up a room.

 

[Aerose91]

The mistake in that thinking is you won't have any baseline against which to establish that a given detox therapy works. The point is to know whether your problem is inorganic or organic mercury, and to also know which disposal system(s) (liver or kidney) are not working efficiently. You can try IMD Powder and Cutler for six months and then test again. You might discover that your blood concentrations went UP and not down, in which case therapy needs adjustment.

Without concrete data to establish presence of a disease and progress against the disease, you are like a person with a blindfold who is told to clean up a room.

Getting tests and even more so, continued tests isn't even an option. I have to move forward with this illness on my own

 

[TheChosenOne]

Without concrete data to establish presence of a disease and progress against the disease, you are like a person with a blindfold who is told to clean up a room.

No need. People with mercury toxicity will feel the progress once they did several rounds of chelation.

 

[pemone]

No need. People with mercury toxicity will feel the progress once they did several rounds of chelation.

Not correct for multiple reasons:

1) You might have some other toxicity (e.g., lead) that the chelator is treating. You end up doing a lot to support detox of mercury that was totally unnecessary, and you end up missing things that were necessary for the condition you actually had.

2) There is strong research data showing that people who have mercury amalgams removed sometimes have INCREASING organic (i.e., from fish) mercury levels for several years? Why is that? It's because the inorganic and elemental mercury from amalgams caused inflammation in your gut lining that affected your absorption. With that source of mercury gone, the gut heals. 95% of your organic mercury coming out as bile then better reabsorbs through the gut. Without a real test plan you completely miss this effect. You have no idea how much intestinal binder to eat, and you have no idea what chelation is actually doing.

3) If chelation is working, according to Cutler, you will have three months of improvement, but at around six months you start to feel WORSE not better. So by your criteria that person would stop chelation because they don't feel better? How you feel is not by itself the useful measure of the result.

If you suspect a signficant mercury toxicity, attempting to detox yourself without a plan to test before and after chelation is just a fools errand. You are just being a random number generator and if you manage to make progress on your disease it will just be good luck.

 

[Aerose91]

Not correct for multiple reasons:

1) You might have some other toxicity (e.g., lead) that the chelator is treating. You end up doing a lot to support detox of mercury that was totally unnecessary, and you end up missing things that were necessary for the condition you actually had.

2) There is strong research data showing that people who have mercury amalgams removed sometimes have INCREASING organic (i.e., from fish) mercury levels for several years? Why is that? It's because the inorganic and elemental mercury from amalgams caused inflammation in your gut lining that affected your absorption. With that source of mercury gone, the gut heals. 95% of your organic mercury coming out as bile then better reabsorbs through the gut. Without a real test plan you completely miss this effect. You have no idea how much intestinal binder to eat, and you have no idea what chelation is actually doing.

3) If chelation is working, according to Cutler, you will have three months of improvement, but at around six months you start to feel WORSE not better. So by your criteria that person would stop chelation because they don't feel better? How you feel is not by itself the useful measure of the result.

If you suspect a signficant mercury toxicity, attempting to detox yourself without a plan to test before and after chelation is just a fools errand. You are just being a random number generator and if you manage to make progress on your disease it will just be good luck.

@pone

Please see my other response to you in the thread about Freddds protocol.

 

[TheChosenOne]

1) You might have some other toxicity (e.g., lead) that the chelator is treating. You end up doing a lot to support detox of mercury that was totally unnecessary, and you end up missing things that were necessary for the condition you actually had.

That's a possibility. That's why I said that people with mercury toxicity will feel progress. People who suspect lead might want to use DMSA which chelates both.

2) There is strong research data showing that people who have mercury amalgams removed sometimes have INCREASING organic (i.e., from fish) mercury levels for several years? Why is that? It's because the inorganic and elemental mercury from amalgams caused inflammation in your gut lining that affected your absorption. With that source of mercury gone, the gut heals. 95% of your organic mercury coming out as bile then better reabsorbs through the gut. Without a real test plan you completely miss this effect. You have no idea how much intestinal binder to eat, and you have no idea what chelation is actually doing.

The chelators that are recommended by Cutler are enough to get rid of the mercury. More information is of course better, but it's almost insane to wait for more tests especially if you have to postpone chelation because you are low on money. Sure, more information is always better, but lack of information will only slow down the cure. So far I only regret one thing and that's the fact that I didn't start sooner.

3) If chelation is working, according to Cutler, you will have three months of improvement, but at around six months you start to feel WORSE not better. So by your criteria that person would stop chelation because they don't feel better? How you feel is not by itself the useful measure of the result.

People who would have read the book would have known that.

If you suspect a signficant mercury toxicity, attempting to detox yourself without a plan to test before and after chelation is just a fools errand. You are just being a random number generator and if you manage to make progress on your disease it will just be good luck.

You see tangible progress as a 'random generator'? Do you know people who were worse off after chelation when they were almost certain they had mercury toxicity?

 

[pemone]

You see tangible progress as a 'random generator'? Do you know people who were worse off after chelation when they were almost certain they had mercury toxicity?

Well, consider some cases:

1) What if you tested for mercury and found you had very little inorganic mercury in blood, and your disposal systems worked great. In the same test, you discover that you have a moderate organic mercury load, but your disposal systems work well on that too.

For that situation, the correct solution is probably not to chelate at all, but just to do use an intestinal binder. Why expose yourself to the significant risks of chelation when the test suggests you don't need to do that?

If you didn't test at all, you end up chelating something your body was disposing of on its own, and you are failing to use an intestinal binder so you end up reabsorbing most of what you dispose of through the liver.

2) You test for mercury and don't have significant organic or inorganic mercury in blood, urine, or hair.

Why are you treating for mercury?

If you didn't test, you could go through a lot of agony with chelators, deplete yourself of vital minerals (which I guess you are also not testing for, since by hypothesis you said this person cannot afford to test), etc.

3) You test for mercury and have a significant load of inorganic mercury and you aren't disposing of it well. You chelate for three months and test again. Amazingly, you find that your blood burden is higher not lower, and the follow up test shows you are not disposing of it through liver well at all.

That person probably needs to strengthen their phase I-to-III pathways through liver and take a binder.

If you didn't test, you had no visibility on the fact that you are making yourself worse, and you simply feel bad all the time.

Let me try one other way of looking at this. Say that you have a patient who convinces herself that she has cancer, and wants to self treat with chemotherapy. And her reasoning is that if the chemotherapy makes her feel better, she must have had cancer. Now wouldn't any person say that is insane? A chelator like DMSA can be more toxic than the most benign chemotherapy drugs. Why is it then in principal different? Taking a strong and toxic chemical is something you should only do when you have evidence that your body needs it.

For me it's a no brainer to get information, get a practitioner who knows how to act on that information, and optimize your pathway based on real data. There are a lot of ways to trip up without information.

I respect that most of us live in countries with freedom to make choices, and you and others can choose to self-medicate and evaluate effectiveness by a different path. All I can do is try to communicate reasons why I think more information is a better way to get to a good result.

 

[Johnmac]

I did a year of Cutler chelation, but was badly sickened by thiol reactions.

The Simplified Methylation Protocol fixed these. It was a dramatic healing that allowed me to continue with chelation. I've now done 2 years of Cutler chelation, and have spent most of the last year on the Freddd Protocol.

I have chelated occasionally on the FP - no problems.

 

[Aerose91]

@pone

No reasonable person would argue against getting constant tests if it was possible. However, myself and many others here have been sick for many years and have no money left for that. It makes more sense to disadvantaged little money remains on taking the knowledge that we do have and putting toward trying a treatment vs spending it getting a test then have none left over for treatments.
If I had the $ I'd be with my doctor every two weeks doing any and all tests possible but that's not an option. It seems like money isn't an issue for you and you're lucky for that but understand that many of us have been sick for a long time and don't have any ways to earn money anymore. Therefore simple doctors visits and any tests are out of the question.

 

[pemone]

I did a year of Cutler chelation, but was badly sickened by thiol reactions.

The Simplified Methylation Protocol fixed these. It was a dramatic healing that allowed me to continue with chelation. I've now done 2 years of Cutler chelation, and have spent most of the last year on the Freddd Protocol.

I have chelated occasionally on the FP - no problems.

That's unfortunate about the thiol reactions. You might want to consider an intestinal binder to help speed the flow out of the system through the liver, using a more natural detox pathway.

Did you test at any time in this sequence? Any way to know if your blood based load of mercury has gone down as a result of all of these efforts?

 

[pemone]

@pone

No reasonable person would argue against getting constant tests if it was possible. However, myself and many others here have been sick for many years and have no money left for that. It makes more sense to disadvantaged little money remains on taking the knowledge that we do have and putting toward trying a treatment vs spending it getting a test then have none left over for treatments.
If I had the $ I'd be with my doctor every two weeks doing any and all tests possible but that's not an option. It seems like money isn't an issue for you and you're lucky for that but understand that many of us have been sick for a long time and don't have any ways to earn money anymore. Therefore simple doctors visits and any tests are out of the question.

I do see how devastating this disease is, and I do understand how it puts people in a corner.

Just a thought: contact Quicksilver and explain your situation and tell them that if they are doing any research studies that include their test, that you would like to be included on that. Same thing for their IMD powder. Maybe you get lucky.

If you have a doctor who understands detox, perhaps the best way to approach this is a more conservative route using an intestinal binder, and strengthening the liver detox pathways. A year of that should clear a lot of toxin. Maybe within that year you get a research opportunity to get testing for free.

 

[TheChosenOne]

The most important organ to detox is the brain. You can't do that through intestinal binder.

 

[pemone]

The most important organ to detox is the brain. You can't do that through intestinal binder.

That's right, but without clearance of the mercury load from the blood, there is a substantial risk that even more mercury will be moved into the brain by the chelator than was there without the chelator.

Deciding when you do or do not take a chelator should be based on measurements of body burden of the different forms of mercury before detox and at some later point in time after you are well into detox.

Having to navigate all of this without any testing is like trying to cross the freeway with a blindfold on.

If it were me, and I was forced to navigate this without testing, I would do everything possible to lower my blood loads by stressing the liver detox systems and making damn sure that I don't reabsorb the liver bile. If you can do that, then after six to 12 months blood burdens will be heading much lower. This assumes amalgams are out. At that point if you want to take a shot at ALA low-dose chelation at least your risks are minimized.