Continous side effect: Cold hands and feet/freezing

[kraken]

Ok so I asked for the thyroid tests and recieved two TSH tests taken at two times:

2012-09-18: TSH 0,77
2013-10-31: TSH 0,84

Reading from stopthethyroidmadness, supposedly TSH is useless? I have no idea if those values really mean anything for my situation, anyone? Else I'll go with the advice on taking Free T3 and T4 as well to see what my thyroid actually produce.

 

[Leopardtail]

Ok so I asked for the thyroid tests and recieved two TSH tests taken at two times:

2012-09-18: TSH 0,77
2013-10-31: TSH 0,84

Reading from stopthethyroidmadness, supposedly TSH is useless? I have no idea if those values really mean anything for my situation, anyone? Else I'll go with the advice on taking Free T3 and T4 as well to see what my thyroid actually produce.

what were the units Kraken ?

 

[kraken]

what were the units Kraken ?

mlU/L

Btw, I didnt have the cold symptoms back in 2013-10..

 

[Leopardtail]

mlU/L

Btw, I didnt have the cold symptoms back in 2013-10..

You need thyroid tests without doubt then Kraken including all of TSH T3 T4.
If your doctor wants a reason "to rule out central hypothyrodism"

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have reoccuring side-effects with my breathing as well which actually gotten worse last days now, exactly the same problem I had last time doing methylation. I had to quit because of it. The breathing problems mainly triggers when I eat something, immediately, or half past through my lunch/snack. I experience problems with swallowing and pretty severe shortness of breath. This has increased the last couple of days. Sometimes I need to take a couple of big breaths in order to "calm myself" making sure i dont swallow the wrong way. Seems maybe that I could have a lack of oxygen and that the body directs that to the heart and lungs as you say? Even though its not enough.
....

Cold hands/feet, breathing problems/shortness of breath/trouble swallowing when eating, random fatigues/energy drops at various times, muscle pain, ache in joints/calfs (inflammation I guess), stiff muscles, GI-issues like IBS, fast transition times (some days 4 times a day), skin and hair problems (dry hair and irritated/red skin, occasional rashes).

On the other hand I experience a lot of benefits as well, mental health has improved quite a bit as an example.

Apart from being constipated and depressed, I had all the other symptoms you mentioned. High uric acid is also implied.

I recovered by putting sodium bicarbonate in the bathtub and increasing my magnesium intake to 600mg daily. The only form I tolerated was magnesium oxide.

I think the explanation is because each ATP molecule needs an atom of Mg, and proper methylation increases ATP generation.

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

Ok so I asked for the thyroid tests and recieved two TSH tests taken at two times:

2012-09-18: TSH 0,77
2013-10-31: TSH 0,84

I don't think you need to worry since you have TSH below 1. But having free T3 would be useful to know if you are converting T4 to T3 properly.

izzy

 

[kraken]

Thanks @Leopardtail, hopefully my doctor will agree with taking the tests.

@Gondwanaland, I also had high uric acid so maybe thats one part of the puzzle as you say? For the magnesium,thats a very high dose. I generally take 150-300/day. Also my magnesium tests came out in the middle of reference so according to those levels I was not deficient

 

[Gondwanaland]

hi @kraken , here is some info I trust regarding Mg testing:
http://drcarolyndean.com/2014/05/magnesium-rbc-blood-test/
http://www.easy-immune-health.com/magnesium-level.html
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2010/05/19/magnesium/

Here are my results followed by the range of my local lab:
Serum Mg 2.2 (1.6 - 2.3 mg/dL)
RBC Mg 5 (4.3 - 5.7 mg/dL) -> see what dr. Dean says about RBC range!
Urine Mg 4.7 (7.3 - 12.2 mg/dL)

In my case I would say my system was getting Mg out from the bones and organs (heart, lungs) to keep an acceptable level in the blood and RBC because during methylation (and even for someone who is not taking the supps) A LOT of Mg is needed for ATP generation.

OTOH magnesium does antagonize iodine, so after about 6-7 weeks of Mg loading I am only taking 200mg daily now.

izzy

 

[Leopardtail]

I don't think you need to worry since you have TSH below 1. But having free T3 would be useful to know if you are converting T4 to T3 properly.

izzy

The TSH below 1 could indicate several problems in its own right, free T3 and T4 are both needed.

 

[Johnmac]

I restarted Freddds methylation plan once again after doing some work on my gut. Things seems to go better this time and I'm willing to push through (eventual) side effects in order to get healing going. Also taking more potassium as well as other co-factors which I believe could be my problem last time. As of now, i'm experiecing a continous side effect (for 2 weeks) at various times of the day and need some help identifying what it could be and how to approach it. I guess its best described as Anemia. My fingers and feet get very cold at various times of the day, typically mid-day. I can notice that my fingers is loosing skin colour as well, looking a bit pale. I find i'm feeling overall more cold in general too.

My guess would be paradoxical folate defiency? but I'm not sure as I've read that certain B-vitamins can get unbalanced and result in a state like this too, I doubt i'm low on B12 though. Currently taking:

Folate: 6-7 mg per day divided on 3-4 doses
B12 (enzymatic): 4-5mg
LCF: 500 mg
ADB12: 3-4 mg
Potassium: 1000-1500
Mangnesium: 150-300 mg/day
Zinc: 30 mg (every other day)
Fish oil: 2 caps max DHA
Vitamin C: 400 mg
Vitamin E: 10 mg
B-complex 1/2 capsule (a bit afraid of the high niacin content, I think the other B´s are balanced well?): http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Stress-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/49834#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=thorne b right stress&rc=15&sr=null&ic=1

Accompanied by this is some other side-effects which gotten better by rasing my folate dose: Edema (water retention in face/joints/ass), IBS issues and general problems with the digestive system (gotten a bit better).

Another side effect is increasing inflammation, mostly felt in my joints/legs/calf muscles, like "growing pains" which I've seen mentioned here before. I wonder if its due to low folate or low potassium. This happens often when I increase my folate dose.

Need some theories/advice on how to tackle the side effects, mostly the cold hands and feet as I believe that points to something more important to take care of

Not sure if any use, but:

I had a crash and burn the last week, which included very cold hands & feet (first time for 2 years) plus plummeting temperatures - below 36 (lowest for ages). (I'm hypothyroid also, & am on T3 only.)

Other symptoms included anhedonia, lack of interest in doing literally anything ("can't be bothered syndrome"), jitteriness, no concentration, tightness or tension in my abdomen, & uncomfortable in my own body. No depression or anxiety - at least as I know them - but I've been unable to do much work for a week.

The crash came after increasing DQ dosages too fast. It worsened dramatically immediately after doubling my methylfolate. However it may also have been (part-)caused by mB12. (After the crash began, I ceased all DQs, then at the end of the day tested 1mg mB12: symptoms worsened again.) Or it may be the LCF: acetyl l carnitine often made me very tense & jittery in the past. Or all 3.

The reason I mention all this is that your mB12 & m-folate dosages are about triple mine, & you say you "restarted Freddds methylation plan once again". Does that mean "recently restarted"? If so, it's conceivable that the early dosages are too high.

 

[kraken]

I got my Thyroid results now. Doesn't seem like I'm hypothyroid after all, but wondering if my results are a bit high instead. They seem to be in the upper reference, not sure if this is worth looking into, anyone experienced? Doctor said it was all normal. It showed the following:

TSH: 1,2 mlE/L
Free T3: 5,7 pmol/L
Free T4: 19,6 pmol/L

One thing that I had was low levels of Leukocytes (white blood cells) with a value of 3,2 (unit x10*9/L). Doctor said that this was probably nothing but wanted me to do an additional blood test.

The coldness still persists although not as intense as before.

Thank you for your post @Johnmac, its possible I went too high too fast. For me, I found it tricky to interpret what a donut hole folate defiency might be or not and figured I was a victim of that, thats why I raised the folate dosage. In the future, IF i decide to try methylation again, i might take things veryyy slowly regardless of my symptoms.

 

[Leopardtail]

I got my Thyroid results now. Doesn't seem like I'm hypothyroid after all, but wondering if my results are a bit high instead. They seem to be in the upper reference, not sure if this is worth looking into, anyone experienced? Doctor said it was all normal. It showed the following:

TSH: 1,2 mlE/L,
Free T3: 5,7 pmol/L - (4-7.4, mid=5.7)
Free T4: 19,6 pmol/L (9-23, mid=16)

One thing that I had was low levels of Leukocytes (white blood cells) with a value of 3,2 (unit x10*9/L). Doctor said that this was probably nothing but wanted me to do an additional blood test.

The coldness still persists although not as intense as before.

Thank you for your post @Johnmac, its possible I went too high too fast. For me, I found it tricky to interpret what a donut hole folate defiency might be or not and figured I was a victim of that, thats why I raised the folate dosage. In the future, IF i decide to try methylation again, i might take things veryyy slowly regardless of my symptoms.

Kraken,

the 'normal range' relates to the age and brand of the equipment used to do the test, the one provided by the lab itself will be more useful than any population norm. Please check the report and tell us what the normal ranges were. It does look very unlikely that you have conventional hypothyroidism though, your Free T3 is exactly average, your T4 on the upper side of normal. Since your T3 and T4 are normal the TSH may not mean very much.

 

[kraken]

Thank you @Leopardtail for your helpful words. Well the only thing that caught my attention was T3, my lab range was 3,5-6 but guess its nothing to worry about really then. The T4 range was 11-22.

 

[dannybex]

I would have a serum ferritin run to make sure your problem isn't low iron and at the same time a serum Zinc to make sure you are getting enough to keep up the conversion homocysteine to methionine.

The folks at the Pfieffer clinic were adamant about getting enough Zinc absorbed to make methylation work. This would be especially significant for you after having gut issues which hinder absorption.

30 mgs. every other day seems pretty light given an absorption of say 20--40% for a healthy gut. I would think closer to 50mg daily of a good chelate would be more in line IF your ferritin levels are good.

Low Zinc will produce cold extremities especially after exercise.

Interesting. Do you have a reference for that? My feet seem to get cold(er) when I take zinc, but at the same time, they're cold right now and haven't taken zinc for days...

 

[dannybex]

The crash came after increasing DQ dosages too fast. It worsened dramatically immediately after doubling my methylfolate. However it may also have been (part-)caused by mB12. (After the crash began, I ceased all DQs, then at the end of the day tested 1mg mB12: symptoms worsened again.) Or it may be the LCF: acetyl l carnitine often made me very tense & jittery in the past. Or all 3.

The reason I mention all this is that your mB12 & m-folate dosages are about triple mine, & you say you "restarted Freddds methylation plan once again". Does that mean "recently restarted"? If so, it's conceivable that the early dosages are too high.

DQ? What does DQ stand for?

 

[Johnmac]

DQ? What does DQ stand for?

Deadlock Quartet.

 

[dannybex]

Ah yes. Okay, thanks.

 

[dannybex]

Karin -- on the 'other' forum, mentioned a year or two ago that her cold feet got worse with too much methylb12, and got better with more folinic acid. It took her awhile to figure that out, but eventually found the balance that worked for her.

 

[2manyhobbies]

Interesting. Do you have a reference for that? My feet seem to get cold(er) when I take zinc, but at the same time, they're cold right now and haven't taken zinc for days...

Some of my nutritional info comes from a couple of older books by Micheal Colgan Phd. He does nutritional counseling for top level athletes and his advice seems to key in with current scientific papers.

Also Prasad is one of the worlds leading authorities on Zinc nutriture and Carl Pfeiffer had a pretty good handle on it. One of his works Mental and Elemental nutrients was loaded with info on the Zinc deficiency symptoms.

Have you or do you supplement with Iodine? I am thinking possible low thyroid as well. A balance is critical whenever supplementing minerals as one can soon deplete another mineral. I liken it to a spiders web when disturbing one strand affects the whole web.

 

[dannybex]

Some of my nutritional info comes from a couple of older books by Micheal Colgan Phd. He does nutritional counseling for top level athletes and his advice seems to key in with current scientific papers.

Also Prasad is one of the worlds leading authorities on Zinc nutriture and Carl Pfeiffer had a pretty good handle on it. One of his works Mental and Elemental nutrients was loaded with info on the Zinc deficiency symptoms.

Have you or do you supplement with Iodine? I am thinking possible low thyroid as well. A balance is critical whenever supplementing minerals as one can soon deplete another mineral. I liken it to a spiders web when disturbing one strand affects the whole web.

That's funny. I used to have Colgan's book, but it was one that I tossed when I moved about a year and a half ago.

I tried a little zinc with my lunch today, and no cold feet, so perhaps I was blaming it when it wasn't the problem, or it helps by taking it with a meal. I'll see how it goes.

I don't do iodine. I've tried it off and on, but am trying to minimize my supplements now after having such a bad year and figuring out that some things I was taking actually gave me symptoms that were identical to worsening ME/CFS. I definitely am hypo-t, and have been taking small doses of natural thyroid, but might need to increase that. Thanks for your reply.

p.s. I got an email from Ray Peat awhile back where he said (paraphrasing) that he thought Pfeiffer went too far with avoiding copper, claiming he had lost all the pigment in his skin. ???