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Autoimmune or ME/CFS or both?

daisybell

Senior Member
Messages
1,613
Location
New Zealand
@Jonathan Edwards thank you for your reply!
I'm glad you think that LDN needs more research. I have been amazed by how much it has helped me in a relatively short space of time. The brain fog is gone and although I still get tired and sometimes feel unwell, my symptoms have been reduced dramatically. I am even thinking about the possibility of resuming some work, having been house-bound 2 months ago, and on a downwards slope.
 
Messages
15,786
That I would not know. I was talking more generally and I think mermaid suggested that PEM and non-refreshing sleep might not be specific features.
I think the thyroid problems involve a more typical exercise intolerance, rather than immune and neurological symptoms delayed by about 24 hours. There tends to be quite a bit of confusion about the distinction between the two, especially since ME patients tend to get both immediate exercise intolerance and PEM.

Though many in both groups do get misdiagnosed, if looking solely at symptoms, especially where less rigorous ME definitions are used.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Avoid cake sure but chocolate ? No way. :)

You may luck out and feel better just by eliminating cake or grains. Fwiw, I'm ok with Rudi's bread once a day or every 2-3 days but that's all. Two slices in 1 day nails me. I react to most of the others I tried that didn't contain my allergens.

Fwiw, I'm sure you know this but you can get h pylori anytime. Pepto bismol can be used to treat h pylori. But my dr insisted I needed serious antibiotics because mine was out of control. My worst symptom was stomach pain in the middle of the night. Eating citrus hurt too tho. I didn't know these were common symptoms.

Only Enzymedica brand digestive enzymes work for me. I need several per meal. Always more than the recommended dose. I like Spectrum ( contains xylanase), Digest Basic, Glutenease and Bean Assist.

Enzymedica's Bean Assist has been helpful for my gastritis. It's good for more than beans. I typically need 2.

Oh and I just successfully treated for a uti that was aggravating my stomach too. Maybe I had e coli in my gut too ? I used Vibrant Health uti formula.

I noticed you're taking 17 supplements a day too. I've found that I had to stop most of my supplements after awhile due to various adverse reactions.

I try NOT to look at my medical records. My body hates me. Lol.

Hope you find something that helps. Tc ... x

When my stomach is reasonably calm I can tolerate a little cacao which is my chocolate hit. Not right now though...

Rudi's bread looks v nice - we don't have it in the UK. So far I seem only Ok with some chestnut and rice flour crispbreads, but when i have a bad flare I like to avoid anything like this.

Yes, you are right re the H Pylori, and I will get it checked out again, as I also see that there can be false negatives. At times my stomach hurts all the time and stops me sleeping, though i am getting a handle on what does it. Unfortunately it seems that even coconut milk without additives do it, so I clearly have problems with coconut now. I was making my kefir with it, so that's a shame.

I use Drs Best digestive enzymes which I see has the 'magic' ingredient in the Bean Assist which is alpha-galactosidase. I haven't heard of the other digestive enzymes, so thank you for that, I will look them up.

Yes, 17 supplements sound a lot, though some are for the digestion. I don't think any of them are the cause of my gastritis problems, or any other adverse reactions, though I did have initial problems with some of the B vits, so cut the doses.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
I think you are on the right track @mermaid. I am personally pretty sure that the autoantibodies in Hashimoto's disease can make you feel terrible through a mechanism that has nothing to do with thyroxine or even the thyroid. In Grave's disease the antibodies can make your fingers and shins swell up and your eyes pop out. I see no reason why antithyroglobulin antibodies should not do strange things too. The problem is that the establishment physicians just don't think a bout this and I think the alternative hormone physicians have missed the point too because they think it is all a matter of fine tuning thyroid hormones. Whether or not you need to tune these my own experience with what patients say suggests that there is another mechanism nobody has even thought about yet.

I suspect having Hshimoto's is quite enough to give symptoms that would satisfy ME criteria. Whether you want to call it one of the types of ME (I think I called it ME1 in a thread a while ago) I think probably does not matter much.

Thank you for your comments Jonathan, much appreciated.

While I agree with you re establishment physicians, I think maybe you are a little harsh on the alternative hormone physicians, though to be fair there are not many of them operating as such in the UK now due to being hounded by the GMC. I know of the one in Belgium of course do to the recent publicity. Most of the people I have come across, seem to be much more rounded in their approach and will consider whether the adrenals need support (contentious re mainstream I know), and whether all vitamins and minerals are optimal to support the thyroid function, (this aspect is spectacularly ignored by GPs at least, though a good endo will do a check).

I cannot really comment on the ones in the US or elsewhere, but the Autoimmune Summit showed me that Functional Medicine (which I guess is on a par with alternative hormone physicians but broader?) wants to look at the whole picture if at all possible.

I was very interested that you believe that Hashimoto's could give symptoms on a par with ME criteria. I have always felt that though my symptoms were fairly typical of someone with ME/CFS, they were not severe apart from the gastric issues. I have read research that seems to link this particular symptom (if it is chronic as mine is) with Hashimoto's for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10448775 I am not sure if this study has been repeated.

I am thinking of going back to my GP (who I tend to avoid due to no answers to anything), to have the H Pylori rechecked and ask about this. Am I right that the only treatment offered in mainstream medicine, even if agreed that it was autoimmune would be for PPIs? Having tried them for 4 yrs, and knowing that long term use is not recommended, I am reluctant to return to them for good reason. However I also do not want to develop stomach cancer.
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
I think the thyroid problems involve a more typical exercise intolerance, rather than immune and neurological symptoms delayed by about 24 hours. There tends to be quite a bit of confusion about the distinction between the two, especially since ME patients tend to get both immediate exercise intolerance and PEM.

Though many in both groups do get misdiagnosed, if looking solely at symptoms, especially where less rigorous ME definitions are used.

Things are not as simple and clear cut. That is why there is confusion. In the ICC, a delayed reaction is not necessary. The recovery must be slow though:

ICC said:
Postexertional exhaustion may occur immediately after activity or be delayed by hours or days. Recovery period is prolonged, usually taking 24 h or longer. A relapse can last days, weeks or longer.

Flu-like symptoms are cited as example, not as requirement (at least that's how I interpret it).

I think in the ICC one can have PEM without any traditional immunological symptoms, as long as there are neurological impairments because gastrointestinal symptoms are counted as immunological. Examples of neurological impairments given in the ICC are:

Difficulty processing information, poor short term memory, unrefreshing sleep, disturbed sleep, headaches, pain.
 
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Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I cannot really comment on the ones in the US or elsewhere, but the Autoimmune Summit showed me that Functional Medicine (which I guess is on a par with alternative hormone physicians but broader?) wants to look at the whole picture if at all possible.

Trouble is if they have not thought of autoantibodies causing malaise directly then looking at a 'whole picture' does not help. I don't think this has anything to do with other hormones like cortisol or vitamins or minerals supporting thyroid function - that is still for me a tunnel vision looking at endocrine glands. I am thinking out beyond that. Historically the textbooks have said that Hashimoto's is associated with malaise and feelings as one would get with viral illness quite apart from any endocrine effects. And some patients have raised CRP levels, which indicates an effect beyond the endocrine glands.

I was very interested that you believe that Hashimoto's could give symptoms on a par with ME criteria. I have always felt that though my symptoms were fairly typical of someone with ME/CFS, they were not severe apart from the gastric issues. I have read research that seems to link this particular symptom (if it is chronic as mine is) with Hashimoto's for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10448775 I am not sure if this study has been repeated.

I am thinking of going back to my GP (who I tend to avoid due to no answers to anything), to have the H Pylori rechecked and ask about this. Am I right that the only treatment offered in mainstream medicine, even if agreed that it was autoimmune would be for PPIs? Having tried them for 4 yrs, and knowing that long term use is not recommended, I am reluctant to return to them for good reason. However I also do not want to develop stomach cancer.

I am a bit confused as to what gastric issues you are thinking of. The paper you quote is about atrophic gastritis, which is associated with autoantibodies to parietal cells and pernicious anaemia with absent acidic production. H Pylori is associated with ordinary peptic ulcers and is helped by reducing acid production from high or normal or various antibiotics that kill the helicobacter - something quite unrelated. If the problem is autoimmune there is no acid anyway. As far as I know ME is not associated with either problem but with IBS type problems lower down the gut.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
That I would not know. I was talking more generally and I think mermaid suggested that PEM and non-refreshing sleep might not be specific features.
Ah, I see.

I was wondering whether @mermaid has Hashimoto's instead of ME. Yes, many of the symptoms are similar, but that is true with many illnesses mistaken for ME. Shoving all illnesses with some symptoms generally similar to ME under the ME umbrella is a major problem in the research, treatment, and political arenas.

Most patients (here at PR, at least) and experienced researchers and clinicians consider the CCC and the ICC the most accurate definitions of the illness. Both require PEM/PENE for an ME diagnosis. So a patients could have ME and Hashimoto's if they have the symptoms of both including PEM/PENE. However, Hashimoto's symptoms without PEM/PENE seems to be singularly Hashimoto's and not a form of ME.

However, if Hashimoto's patients also experience PEM/PENE (which is not exercise intolerance) then it would indeed be difficult to distinguish between Hashimoto's and ME, so it could be, as @Jonathan Edwards suggests,
...one of the types of ME (I think I called it ME1...

So the question remains for the membership at large -- does anyone know if Hashimoto's, or other autoimmune illnesses have PEM/PENE (as opposed to exercise intolerance) as part of their symptom set?

If so, we might want to consider joining with these groups as "types of ME" for advocacy and research purposes. They have better funding and better public perception. If they are "types of ME" and we can make that argument based on scientific facts, we are in a much better position politically. No one is arguing that Hashimoto's or lupus or other autoimmune diseases exist.

Imagine being able to say, "I have ME" and when friends/family/doctors ask what it is, you can say, "Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, lupus, (and so on) are all types of ME". It would give us SO much more credibility. :thumbsup:
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Trouble is if they have not thought of autoantibodies causing malaise directly then looking at a 'whole picture' does not help. I don't think this has anything to do with other hormones like cortisol or vitamins or minerals supporting thyroid function - that is still for me a tunnel vision looking at endocrine glands. I am thinking out beyond that. Historically the textbooks have said that Hashimoto's is associated with malaise and feelings as one would get with viral illness quite apart from any endocrine effects. And some patients have raised CRP levels, which indicates an effect beyond the endocrine glands.

I am a bit confused as to what gastric issues you are thinking of. The paper you quote is about atrophic gastritis, which is associated with autoantibodies to parietal cells and pernicious anaemia with absent acidic production. H Pylori is associated with ordinary peptic ulcers and is helped by reducing acid production from high or normal or various antibiotics that kill the helicobacter - something quite unrelated. If the problem is autoimmune there is no acid anyway. As far as I know ME is not associated with either problem but with IBS type problems lower down the gut.

Sorry if I come across in the last post a bit muddled. My science knowledge is very limited, and I don't always have the right way of expressing what I am asking perhaps.

I did not even know that Hashimotos is associated with malaise, as so little is told to the patients on this score. In fact I was just encouraged to believe that I would be fine as long as my TSH was in range. It's only in the last couple of years that I have read more on the subject and I was diagnosed nearly 20 years ago. I never associated the ME diagnosis with my thyroid condition, because no medical person encouraged me to, but I can see now that it's entirely possible that it was Hashimoto's all the time.

As for the gastric issues, well I am just trying to get my head around what I have going on really. I have had both IBS (for 30 yrs but now OK after much help with diet/supplements), followed by gastritis/duodenitis (diagnosed via an endoscopy 11 yrs ago, but without finding H Pylori). I was given PPIs for 4 years until I decided to stop them.

I am assuming that the pain I have now is still gastritis as it's in the upper gastric area, just under the rib cage. I have had it in increasing bouts over the past 5 years or so.

If it is gastritis and it isn't caused by H Pylori, then I am assuming that it's autoimmune as I don't know of anything else that would cause it. Or are there other forms of chronic gastritis that it could be (cannot find much when I google this). I accept that it's not an ME related thing, so assumed therefore it must be a Hashimoto's related thing instead perhaps as the paper seemed to suggest. I doubt that I have pernicious anaemia as I take high dose B12 and really don't have any other symptoms other than the gastritis type pain.

Or is that I am just hypersensitive to foods now for reasons I don't fully understand, ie is it that there is some problem with my nervous system in the gut? Would a gastroenterologist be able to explain what might be going on? I have never been offered a referral despite having had this problem for years now.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Ah, I see.

I was wondering whether @mermaid has Hashimoto's instead of ME. Yes, many of the symptoms are similar, but that is true with many illnesses mistaken for ME. Shoving all illnesses with some symptoms generally similar to ME under the ME umbrella is a major problem in the research, treatment, and political arenas.

Most patients (here at PR, at least) and experienced researchers and clinicians consider the CCC and the ICC the most accurate definitions of the illness. Both require PEM/PENE for an ME diagnosis. So a patients could have ME and Hashimoto's if they have the symptoms of both including PEM/PENE. However, Hashimoto's symptoms without PEM/PENE seems to be singularly Hashimoto's and not a form of ME.

However, if Hashimoto's patients also experience PEM/PENE (which is not exercise intolerance) then it would indeed be difficult to distinguish between Hashimoto's and ME, so it could be, as @Jonathan Edwards suggests,

So the question remains for the membership at large -- does anyone know if Hashimoto's, or other autoimmune illnesses have PEM/PENE (as opposed to exercise intolerance) as part of their symptom set?

If so, we might want to consider joining with these groups as "types of ME" for advocacy and research purposes. They have better funding and better public perception. If they are "types of ME" and we can make that argument based on scientific facts, we are in a much better position politically. No one is arguing that Hashimoto's or lupus or other autoimmune diseases exist.

Imagine being able to say, "I have ME" and when friends/family/doctors ask what it is, you can say, "Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, lupus, (and so on) are all types of ME". It would give us SO much more credibility. :thumbsup:

I certainly HAVE had PEM and PENE in the past with whatever it is that I have got - or do I have 'exercise intolerance'? I thought they WERE the same thing - could you clarify the difference please?

Also I have had 2 mitochondrial tests done at a 4 year interval and which showed that there was a big problem going on there originally, but with some considerable improvement when redone last year. I wonder if these tests were done on people with 'just' Hashimoto's that it might produce similar problematic results - I would have to ask Dr Myhill on that one. Otherwise perhaps it's more an indication of Jonathan's ME1 rather than just Hashi's.

At the moment I am much improved re energy, but have not had any consistency yet, so until I see that for say, 6 mths, I will not be making assumptions.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
If it is gastritis and it isn't caused by H Pylori, then I am assuming that it's autoimmune as I don't know of anything else that would cause it. Or are there other forms of chronic gastritis that it could be (cannot find much when I google this). I accept that it's not an ME related thing, so assumed therefore it must be a Hashimoto's related thing instead perhaps as the paper seemed to suggest. I doubt that I have pernicious anaemia as I take high dose B12 and really don't have any other symptoms other than the gastritis type pain.

Or is that I am just hypersensitive to foods now for reasons I don't fully understand, ie is it that there is some problem with my nervous system in the gut? Would a gastroenterologist be able to explain what might be going on? I have never been offered a referral despite having had this problem for years now.

Gastritis is mostly, as far as I am aware, either H pylori (infective), due to non-steroidals like aspirin (toxic) or atrophic (autoimmune - linked to Hashimoto's). PPI treatment helps H pylori but antibiotics are now more popular I think. I can't see they would be any use for atrophic gastritis with no acid anyway. A good gastroenterologist should be able to sort out what is going on. I would expect it to be fairly straightforward to distinguish atrophic gastritis from H pylori problems on endoscopy and I guess that should have been documented. The fact that you had PPI suggests that this was not an atrophic diagnosis. You say H pylori was not found but I would expect atrophic change to look quite different from the ulcer/erosion type problems that are supposed to be mostly H pylori but can also occur with pain killers. But I am not a gastroenterologist. There ought to be somebody reasonably good in Truro.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Thank you Jonathan. That is what I have read when I looked it up. I am sure mine wasn't caused by the non-steroidal route, so that only leaves the others. I still have the notes from my endoscopy but I don't remember that they throw any light on the type other than I recall mild erythema was seen, not erosions.

At any rate I will pursue it, and see if I can get a referral though the thought of having another endoscopy (have had 2 in my time) makes my toes curl.

Incidentally with all this talk of autoimmune Hashimoto's, I now see that it's more likely living in Europe that I have autoimmune Ord's thyroiditis, which doesn't get much of a mention online, since I guess the net is so slanted towards the US where Hashimoto's is predominant.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
I certainly HAVE had PEM and PENE in the past with whatever it is that I have got - or do I have 'exercise intolerance'? I thought they WERE the same thing - could you clarify the difference please?
Sounds like ME and Hashimoto's (or Ord's) to me, but what do I know? :D

PEM/PENE and exercise intolerance are not the same thing. If they were, the writers of the CCC and the ICC would have used the relatively common and well-understood symptom "exercise intolerance" in their definition. Because it is NOT the same thing, they described the symptom that appears to be unique in ME. Perhaps we will find that it exists in other illnesses, but so far it has not been identified in anything but ME.

People with ME can have both exercise intolerance and PEM/PENE.

A. Postexertional neuroimmune exhaustion (PENE pen’-e): Compulsory
This cardinal feature is a pathological inability to produce sufficient energy on demand with prominent symptoms primarily in the neuroimmune regions. Characteristics are as follows:
1. Marked, rapid physical and/or cognitive fatigability in response to exertion, which may be minimal such as activities of daily living or simple mental tasks, can be debilitating and cause a relapse.
2. Postexertional symptom exacerbation:e.g.acute flu-like symptoms, pain and worsening of other symptoms.
3.Postexertional exhaustion may occur immediately after activity or be delayed by hours or days.
4. Recovery period is prolonged, usually taking 24 h or longer. A relapse can last days, weeks or longer.
5. Low threshold of physical and mental fatigability (lack of stamina) results in a substantial reduction in pre-illness activity level.
from the ICC

Exercise intolerance is a condition where the patient is unable to do physical exercise at the level or for the duration that would be expected of someone in his or her general physical condition, or experiences unusually severe post-exercise pain, fatigue, nausea, vomiting or other negative effects.
from Wikipedia
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Incidentally with all this talk of autoimmune Hashimoto's, I now see that it's more likely living in Europe that I have autoimmune Ord's thyroiditis, which doesn't get much of a mention online, since I guess the net is so slanted towards the US where Hashimoto's is predominant.

Interesting. I had never heard of Ord's thyroiditis. Ord's name is never mentioned in medical textbooks or publications (the search scores zero on pubmed). This does not seem to be a US thing. Ord was British and Hashimoto was a Japanese pathologist who worked in Germany. It seems that Ord coined the term myxoedema and Hashimoto described the pathology. I don't think they are two different diseases - that seems to be a myth created recently.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Sounds like ME and Hashimoto's (or Ord's) to me, but what do I know? :D

PEM/PENE and exercise intolerance are not the same thing. If they were, the writers of the CCC and the ICC would have used the relatively common and well-understood symptom "exercise intolerance" in their definition. Because it is NOT the same thing, they described the symptom that appears to be unique in ME. Perhaps we will find that it exists in other illnesses, but so far it has not been identified in anything but ME.

People with ME can have both exercise intolerance and PEM/PENE.


from the ICC


from Wikipedia

Thank you @SOC - yes, I see now. I definitely have the PENE then, as I have marked cognitive deterioration after exertion. A feeling of brain fatigue and inability to cope though sometimes taking time out and shutting my eyes for half an hour will revive me. Also my immune system seems to be affected too if I do too much, though that is showing signs of improvement.

Sometimes the physical pain doesn't kick in for 48 hrs and continues for 3 days or more. However, that too is showing signs of improvement. I am taking targeted supplements though so maybe it's all coming together at last.

I sleep well for 8 hrs and that has been my saviour I think as I know sleep is important in terms of repair. I often wake feeling fatigued and hung over, but a dose of T3 picks me up and gets me going after an hour or so.
 
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mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Interesting. I had never heard of Ord's thyroiditis. Ord's name is never mentioned in medical textbooks or publications (the search scores zero on pubmed). This does not seem to be a US thing. Ord was British and Hashimoto was a Japanese pathologist who worked in Germany. It seems that Ord coined the term myxoedema and Hashimoto described the pathology. I don't think they are two different diseases - that seems to be a myth created recently.

Thanks Jonathan. I only stumbled across Ord myself yesterday. Sounds like one of those scientific events then when two people were working on something at the same time then.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Thanks Jonathan. I only stumbled across Ord myself yesterday. Sounds like one of those scientific events then when two people were working on something at the same time then.

Well, it looks as if Dr Ord at St Thomas' Hospital got there 40 years ahead of Hashimoto, so maybe we should call it Ord's disease after all (hoist flag of St George). But then I suspect William Ord was a grandson of William Henry Ord, politician and filthy rich landowner who made money out of coal mines, and only got to be surgeon at St Thomas' 'cos 'e were rich. But maybe we can't hold that against 'im. Same as Darwin, who was grandson of Wedgwood of the china.
 

mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
@Jonathan Edwards
Well the UK should be proud of him I guess then - and as for the filthy rich scenario, no change there then. I am guessing that these days (not so much in the 1950s until 10 yrs ago when there was a grants situation operating), it's mostly those with money and probably private education who can train to be doctors due to the long training and no income during that time.

Back onto the gastritis scenario.... I am about to ring my GP to try and kickstart the process. I turned to the NHS Choices page so I could at least quote the NHS stance on it accurately.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gastritis/Pages/Introduction.aspx#causes
'but occasionally viruses, parasites, fungi, and bacteria other than H. pylori are the culprits'

I see that it is POSSIBLE that it is not caused by H Pylori. In my case mine definitely worsened after what I believe to have been whooping cough some 5 years ago. Just wondering on that score, and hoping a gastro could be able to find out for me.

Mind you, I have had various private tests done and nothing has ever shown up that would be significant on this.
 
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xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi @mermaid

I noticed you said the pain was under your rib cage. That's a common spot for gall bladder problems.

Also a lot of us get pain in that area. I "think" it was KDM who noticed that. Mine comes and goes at this point. I haven't tried documenting my food, etc yet to see if there's a connection. My digestion is much better if I go for a 20-30 minute walk each day but pem is interfering. So I'm not sure if walking is helping this.

Fwiw if it is your gall bladder, I wouldn't have it removed until you've tried alternative treatments. Some doctors recognize that celiacs commonly have gall bladder issues. I wish my doctors had known that instead of removing mine.

I found 2 interesting articles on google search in the pheonix rising articles section when googling cfs autoimmune.

When I had a serious h pylori infection and tried pepto bismol it turned everything in my mouth black. I really had to work to scrub it off with my toothbrush and baking soda. I stopped getting that reaction after it cleared. I was thinking this might be a good at home test for h pylori. I never had this reaction prior to getting h pylori and I don't get this reaction now.

Tc ... x

Eta. I'm not sure if you're aware that most gf processed foods are cross contaminated with gluten. Dr Fasano probably still talks about this. This is one of the reasons why so many people, inc me, end up on the paleo diet.
 
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mermaid

Senior Member
Messages
714
Location
UK
Thanks @xchocoholic

My hunch is that is isn't gall bladder. I did think of this last year when my sister in law had gall bladder pain and had it removed and I checked out the symptoms. My symptoms don't seem acute enough, or in the right place to me.....they are definitely very central and not off to one side.

I am slowly learning about such things as cross reaction - got to read a lot more I think. The issue re gf processed foods is interesting. My diet is getting cleaner by the day! Still a way to go though.....I fear that the nuts and seeds may be due to go next.

It's pretty well just meat, fish, veg, coconut oil, and butter now, with nuts and seeds. Not totally, but pretty well. Oh and Rooibosch tea!

The pepto bismol story is very scary! I think I will keep off it unless I have to. So many things affect the gastritis and I see it is a salicylate so might not suit everyone. I don't take chemical things unless I really have to, as I think the ingredients are probably toxic to the liver anyway. But that's just me....

I will check out those articles....
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
My gall bladder pain was close to the middle too. So is my scar. Lol.

I'm careful with meds too but got interest in how bismuth works. Since I couldn't find plain organic bismuth I opted for pepto. I just had to scrub my teeth and tongue regularly.

Soaking nuts and seeds is supposed to make them easier to digest. That didn't help me tho. I just finally ordered some Enzymedica lypogold to try.

I was on Creon, digestive enzyme, but it's pork based and made me feel weird. My labs, cdsas, repeatedly showed that I'm low on elastase so my dr prescribed Creon. It was cheaper because insurance paid for it.

Gotta run. X