• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Lipkin at the NIH: NIH Telebriefing Transcript Available

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
I always love listening to Ian Lipkin. He's very clear and very organized. You can find the transcript and call here - https://www.nih.gov/research-traini...ves/mecfs/nih-me/cfs-advocacy-call-march-2018

Some highlights for me - Lipkin emphasized subsets

And as a clinician as well as a scientist I can tell you that I've seen many patients with these disorders and there are people who respond to antivirals and there are other people who respond to modifiers of the microbiome. And there are other people who respond to drugs that alter neurotransmitter levels. And I'm not certain that these are all the same. But they manifest with fatigue and cognitive dysfunction.

We also have an effort to try to identify these phenotypes by mining these databases that we have, using state of the art methods that are typically employed by people who want to figure out whether or not the stock market or particular stock is going to go up or down. Machine learning, ways in which you find patterns that may not be readily apparent using traditional methods for analysis of complex sets of information.

...........................

Because I think we're still in the early days of understanding what, you know, what comprises this set of syndromes. If you talk to people 50 years ago about cancer, you know, we're going to have a war on cancer. There are many different types of cancer. And they have different causes and they have different solutions. And I think we may be in the same situation with ME/CFS. I'm not saying that there are going to be as many types as there are forms of cancer, but we have some individuals who have a rapid onset following what seems to be an infectious illness. There are other people who seem to have an allergic prodrome. There are other people from whom this comes out of the blue. I'm not certain that these are all the same thing.

And then you have some individuals who as I said earlier appear to respond to changes in diet that alter their microbiome. There are other people who respond to herpes medications. So until we have a better set of what I would like to refer to as biomarkers, that allow us to distinguish between all these different types of ME/CFS, it's going to be difficult to come up with a coherent plan for diagnosis and treatment. And I think what we're doing right now is chipping away at what we need to learn as rapidly as we possibly can.

So I'm encouraged by this because I think what it tells us is that as we understand more about this set of illnesses, some people will be treatable with one set of approaches and other people with a different set of approaches.

Metabolomics - It was good to hear about the metabolomics work Lipkin is doing with the same people I believe Ron Davis and Bob Naviaux are working with. This is good because the machines are so "touchy". Really looking to the spinal fluid work with Simmaron

Terry Gilmete. Hi, this is Terry Gilmete and I've had ME for 32 years now. And I have a couple of questions. The first question is for Dr. Lipkin. I’m interested a little more about what's happening at UC Davis. What is the name of the project and who is in charge of it? And could you tell us a little bit more about what's happening at UC Davis?

Dr. Ian Lipkin: The person, so the person who's doing the metabolomic research there is Oliver Fiehn, F-I-E-H-N. He's the director of the metabolomics center there. He's a member of the Metabolomic Society, an officer of the Metabolomic Society, a graduate of the Free University and from the Max Planck and is absolutely top draw. And when we decided to integrate metabolomics in our center, I interviewed directors of metabolomic centers across the United States, actually across the world and flew out and met with him and decided that his team was the one with which we wanted to work.

We have now done two projects with the Fiehn group: one on plasma using materials from the Chronic Fatigue Initiative supported by the Hutchins Family Foundation and the other is a set of spinal fluids that we analyzed in collaboration with Dan Peterson in Incline Village. And I will tell you that this is tantalizing and unfortunately not very satisfactory for you. But and I wish it were different, but I can't present the data because if I do that then it will never get published. That's just the way these things go. But I'm hopeful that they'll be out there soon.

Nevada Center - nice to see that Lipkin is pleased with the work done by Lombardi at the former WPI

Now in terms of genes, one of the things that I think we need to do because there has been some discussion of looking at GWA studies. I think there's one GWA study that came out of Nevada that was done by Lombardi what was quite interesting. But and they looked at something like 650, I'm trying to remember. I don't want to misspeak. But in any event, they had a fairly comprehensive microarray approach for looking at exomes and as well as introns.
 

fingers2022

Senior Member
Messages
427
I disagree.
This is Metabollocks.
There are many subsets of fatigue...of course there are.
However, there is a disease which is generally known as ME, and this is of infectious agent origin, typically sudden onset with viral-like symptoms...indeed probably caused by a virus with ongoing viral symptoms. It needs to be treated as such
Big data is fine, but how about talking to sufferers? Talk to those gaining improvement on antiviral/antiretroviral drugs for example.
Lipkin selling us down the river people.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
It sounds like he is looking to solve the puzzle of ME/CFS, in all of its variations, and to get the work published, which will help get it taken seriously by medical institutions and insurance companies in the long run.

Doesn't sound like anything with immediate applicability to treatment today is imminent, so we likely have to keep going with our own n=1 experiments.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
I disagree.
This is Metabollocks.
There are many subsets of fatigue...of course there are.
However, there is a disease which is generally known as ME, and this is of infectious agent origin, typically sudden onset with viral-like symptoms...indeed probably caused by a virus with ongoing viral symptoms. It needs to be treated as such
Big data is fine, but how about talking to sufferers? Talk to those gaining improvement on antiviral/antiretroviral drugs for example.
Lipkin selling us down the river people.
Well hopefully we'll get the studies which identify that subset. I would think it would pop out in the molecular work at some point.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
There are many subsets of fatigue...of course there are.
However, there is a disease which is generally known as ME, and this is of infectious agent origin, typically sudden onset with viral-like symptoms...indeed probably caused by a virus with ongoing viral symptoms. It needs to be treated as such
Big data is fine, but how about talking to sufferers? Talk to those gaining improvement on antiviral/antiretroviral drugs for example.
The problem is nobody can identify A single virus. Indeed huge numbers with viral onset and viral-like symptoms also have no identifiable continuing viral infection. Now it might be hard to find, but with decades looking we should have found it. It might be enteroviruses, for example, but the finding is inconsistent. I suspect a double hit in my case, measles encephalitis as a child, then Coxsackie 3B as a young adult.

Quite a lot of data also suggests that ME is two or more illnesses, though it may be one with two different manifestations, that is not uncommon in viral infections for example.

New data is supposedly coming out of Stanford soon, we are waiting for publication, that might have identified the genetic risk factor, and its in the immune system as has long been suspected. If confirmed, then the issue is not just about a virus, but a virus and an uncommon immune reaction to it. Understanding what that response is might give us a better grasp of what ME really is.

Stanford is also changing its story on antivirals, with the position that we might need up to five years on antivirals, not all antivirals will work, and those that do have other properties aside from stopping a specific type of virus replicating. More is expected on this, but I do not know when.

ME is also associated with non-viral severe infections, and also a range of toxins. These are just less common. Then there is the question about how to study those with EDS who get ME, what is it about the genetic issues in EDS that increase ME incidence? My guess is its about a weakened blood-brain barrier.

Then there is the subgroup that includes encephalitis survivors, who fit the definitions but have a slightly different cytokine profile. Is that important, or just a different manifestation of the same underlying issue? Does this also apply to meningitis? We don't know.

Also of interest from Stanford is they are replicating the Japanese brain inflammation study, and have a possible brain scan to diagnose ME right now ... which is currently being tested though I am unaware of the details of the testing. It may or may not be validated.

Lipkin's work does need to be examined very closely, but then all the research needs to be examined. You never just accept a scientific finding. The more important it is, the more it needs scrutiny. A high percentage of findings, especially on small cohorts with limited testing and analysis, fail replication. That is a huge problem in ME research. As many of us are too well aware this also applies to treatments. (Actually its a huge problem in all of medicine, but badly funded research like for ME makes this worse.)

I like how Lipkin reasons, analyzes and communicates. It does not mean I think he is right. The science will show that, or not, as it comes out and becomes understood.
 

Gemini

Senior Member
Messages
1,176
Location
East Coast USA
The problem is nobody can identify A single virus. Indeed huge numbers with viral onset and viral-like symptoms also have no identifiable continuing viral infection... New data is supposedly coming out of Stanford soon, we are waiting for publication, that might have identified the genetic risk factor, and its in the immune system as has long been suspected. If confirmed, then the issue is not just about a virus, but a virus and an uncommon immune reaction to it.

Very nice overview of the research to determine what ME is @alex3619. Agree with all your points.

Would add one more thing coming out of Stanford sometime in the future, the results of Mark Davis' work that might trace back to an original trigger, infectious or autoimmune.

This was cited by NIH about six months ago as being a potential "major breakthrough" in the field of immunology but haven't heard anything more about when we might see publication of it?

Identifying the trigger and then determining if it is still present is Step 1 of Naviaux's 3-step treatment plan which he presented at the OMF Community Symposium.

Interestingly, Step 2 "Refilling the Metabolic Tank" includes addressing the gut microbiome which Lipkin has been studying for quite some time now.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Would add one more thing coming out of Stanford sometime in the future, the results of Mark Davis' work that might trace back to an original trigger, infectious or autoimmune.
Yes, its going to be an interesting year or two ahead. I am hoping for major revelations. There are quite a lot of breakthrough studies right now, but I listed the issues that first came to mind.
 

FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
-----

ME is also associated with non-viral severe infections, and also a range of toxins. These are just less common. Then there is the question about how to study those with EDS who get ME, what is it about the genetic issues in EDS that increase ME incidence? My guess is its about a weakened blood-brain barrier.

Then there is the subgroup that includes encephalitis survivors, who fit the definitions but have a slightly different cytokine profile. Is that important, or just a different manifestation of the same underlying issue? Does this also apply to meningitis? We don't know.

Also of interest from Stanford is they are replicating the Japanese brain inflammation study, and have a possible brain scan to diagnose ME right now ... which is currently being tested though I am unaware of the details of the testing. It may or may not be validated.

----

A few quick comments.

Baraniuk appears to be working on the line of problems re blood/csf barrier in ME/cfs. He's also recently started recruiting for a MRI study.

Here are a few extracts from Baraniuk's 2017 paper*; there's probably more on the Georgetown University website.

*Extract from paper titled: "Exercise – induced changes in cerebrospinal fluid miRNAs in Gulf War Illness, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and sedentary control subjects".

"Choroid plexus is dysfunctional in Alzheimer’s disease68. This provides the rationale to consider the role of the blood – cerebrospinal fluid barrier in the cognitive dysfunction of CFS and GWI. There are numerous reports of elevated and diminished miRNAs in cerebrospinal fluid in Alzheimer’s disease36,69,70,71,72,73,74, but none matched the patterns of our groups. miR-let-7i-5p36 was elevated in Alzheimer’s, but levels were equivalent in nonexercise groups (Fig. 8)."

To me it's interesting that the research into Alzheimer’s disease seems to have progressed understanding of the blood – cerebrospinal fluid barrier and ways to examine the functioning/non-functioning of same. Also, brings to mind the name myalgic encephalitis and the MRI studies showing same.
 

neweimear

Senior Member
Messages
215
Is there something off about Ian Lipkin...I just can't fully trust him....can't put my finger on it. I hope I'm wrong, I hope he is doing his genuine best to help us.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
191
Location
Czech Republic, EU
It is good that Lipkin is in such a close contact with ME sufferers and he also feels obliged to those whom he wasn't able to help and who commited suicide. It is also great that he distinguishes subsets of patients, some are better on probiotics, some on antiherpes antivirals and some on SSRI even when they don't suffer from a psychiatric disease. If I understand it well he will confirm and elaborate on the results of Navieux by studying the cerebrospinal fluid.