Sleeping! (calcium/magnesium ratio - hair analysis) (and no drugs)

[Learner1]

Magnesium oxide is really good for inducing diarrhea.

Glycinate, malate, etc. are not so likely to cause it.

 

[liverock]

Yeah, that was the most important piece of information I gleaned from the report. I had always wondered why I was able to fall asleep without too much trouble, but had so much trouble in the middle of the night. I wish doctors (all kinds - M.D.s, naturopaths, etc.) knew this instead of going on and on about sleep hygiene etc. It seems pretty basic but in all my years of trying to find a way to sleep, this is the first time I've come across this info.

Thanks for posting this link, I just glanced at it quickly - it looks very informative!

Taking increased amounts of magnesium can lower potassium levels which can raise blood pressure which maybe what is happening in your case.
This is the wagon wheel in the article showing all the interactions with other minerals including potassium.(K)

http://www.traceelements.com/docs/Magnesium Wheels.pdf.

Try increasing your coconut water slowly, or whatever you take for increasing K, till you get a happy balance between Mg and K.

 

[Mary]

Taking increased amounts of magnesium can lower potassium levels which can raise blood pressure which maybe what is happening in your case.
This is the wagon wheel in the article showing all the interactions with other minerals including potassium.(K)

http://www.traceelements.com/docs/Magnesium Wheels.pdf.

Try increasing your coconut water slowly, or whatever you take for increasing K, till you get a happy balance between Mg and K.

Good suggestion, but I keep a very close eye on my potassium. I've needed to take a little extra but not much. I'm very familiar with symptoms of low potassium - muscle spasm or cramps in my feet, lower legs and if it's low enough, severe fatigue. I drink low-sodium V8 plus take potassium gluconate - 800 - 1000 mg a day.

I believe though the magnesium did lower my phosphorous a bit (refeeding syndrome) and have supplemented extra in very small amounts.

I'm switching to a different form of magnesium (citrate/oxide blend) to see if that helps my BP.

 

[PatJ]

This is the one on Magnesium in which he defines type 2 insomnia, (where you keep waking up) as a MG deficiency

I take magnesium at bedtime (with other supplements) to help with getting to sleep but I always wake up at 12-1am and sleep much more lightly (sometimes not at all). Thanks to your post I've started taking another dose of magnesium when I wake up in the middle of the night. I now sleep more deeply after midnight.

 

[Learner1]

Mag oxide can promote diarrhea and id not very biosvailable. This is a good rundown on types and uses of magnesium.

https://www-globalhealingcenter-com...center.com/natural-health/types-of-magnesium/

My doctor has me on magnesium malate in the morning to help Krebs cycle, either Designs for Health or Seeking Health. I've also been prescribed mag glycinate before bed.

 

[Mary]

Well, after a lot of experimentation I am now primarily taking magnesium oxide at night for sleep. I know it's supposed to be the least bioavailable and may cause diarrhea, but (1) mag glycinate raised my blood pressure; (2) mag citrate worsened my insomnia; (3) mag malate just did not work for me at night for sleep, and I need the magnesium at night. I'm tolerating the magnesium oxide pretty well - no diarrhea and it seems to be as effective for sleep as magnesium glycinate was. I was getting a little desperate trying to find a form of magnesium I could tolerate at night so am glad this is working for me.

 

[whitebeach]

@Countrygirl, @Gondwanaland, @Learner1 (I’m tagging you because I’ve corresponded with all of you re sleep), I’ve done several posts about sleep and think I have finally found the Holy Grail. It feels too good to be true but it’s been 3 weeks now. I recently had a hair analysis done which showed that my calcium/magnesium ratio was very badly skewed in favor of calcium, and it recommended I stop my calcium and vitamin D supplements, at least temporarily, which I did. And then on my own I added in more magnesium and switched it up so that I was taking all my magnesium at night - after dinner, before bed and in the middle of the night. And immediately I started sleeping better. The hair analysis report said that insomnia characterized by the ability to initially fall asleep but then to wake up and have trouble sleeping thereafter (which is me) is associated with magnesium deficiency. This was new information to me - why don’t doctors know this?!

I was taking what I thought were adequate amounts of calcium and magnesium but doing a couple of things wrong. One, I was taking them together and didn’t realize that was not a good idea. Also, I now believe the magnesium supplement I was taking was an inferior product. In any event, it was too much calcium in relation to magnesium and I should have been taking the bulk of the magnesium at night.

My levels of calcium and magnesium on the hair analysis were not that extreme - calcium was in the low-normal range, and my magnesium was at the bottom of the normal range. It would never go up. But the ratio was the problem.

So I started taking 200 mg mag glycinate after dinner, 400 mg before bed and 200 to 400 mg more in the middle of the night. Yeah, that’s a lot and now I’m cutting back, but it worked. So last night I took 100 mg with dinner, 400 before bed and 200 middle of the night. I will probably cut it a little more, but am going slowly with this.

However, my BP has gone up a bit and I’m starting to get more tired and achy and have added in a little calcium in the morning and that is helping. So it’s a balancing act.

Also, I seem to need more phosphorous as well (refeeding syndrome). My phosphorous got depleted when I added in B1 and I think the same thing has happened with the magnesium..

I don’t have easy access to nutritional testing. I’m going by symptoms and muscle testing but I am sleeping better than I have been in over 20 years.

I was on first 0.5 mg and then 1 mg. lorazepam in the middle of the night for 10 years for sleep. I started tapering off of it 1-1/2 years ago after I learned that benzos are linked to Alzheimer’s, got completely off of it a year ago, and my sleep has been hellish ever since I started the taper a year and a half ago. And actually it was getting worse recently, instead of better. So this is like a miracle for me. I really didn’t know what to do. The doctors had no answers. But I was getting 3-4 hours of sleep a night and didn’t know how long I could go on that way. And I have a very low tolerance for drugs, which aren’t the answer anyways! I did try trazodone which helped a little at one time but left me tired and drugged, and Baclofen, which made me spacey but didn’t do much for my sleep.

I’m also taking 5-htp, melatonin, glycine, inositol, niacin and l-theanine.

My former doctor (who died a few years ago) used to do a hair analysis every year, but he never looked at the ratios, only the levels of minerals - he was extremely knowledgeable but didn’t know this.

Here’s the on-line company I used to get the testing done, and I was very happy with them and their service: https://hairanalysisreport.com/order-hair-analysis/ - I ordered TEI Profile 2 which included a written analysis from Trace Elements, and a phone consult with the company Hair Analysis Report. It cost more to get the report with the analysis from TE but was so well worth it, I wouldn’t have been able to figure it out on my own. I selected testing done by Trace Elements lab because it’s the lab my doctor used.

This is VERY interesting did the analysis lab tell you how to correct the calcium mag imbalance?

 

[Mary]

This is VERY interesting did the analysis lab tell you how to correct the calcium mag imbalance?

They told me to stop my calcium and vitamin D supplements, at least temporarily and suggested a retest in 3 months. So I stopped my calcium for a few months, and stopped vitamin D only briefly as I believe I need it a lot. I increased my magnesium on my own. I'm currently taking 400 mg. magnesium glycinate (yes, back on glycinate) before bed and 400 mg. more middle of the night. It's still helping some, though not as much as initially.

I have added calcium back in because my nails were getting very weak, but half as much as I was taking before, and I take the calcium with breakfast. It's surprising - my nails got much stronger very quickly once I re-started taking calcium.

I've also started taking magnolia extract from Bulk Supplements - it's much more potent and works much better than other brands I've tried - I'm taking 1/8 of a teaspoon dissolved in water before bed and 1/8 teaspoon more middle of the night. When I tried 1/4 teaspoon before bed and middle of the night, it worked but left me drugged the entire next day.

 

[Wayne]

my nails got much stronger very quickly once I re-started taking calcium.

HI @Mary,

I've taken a variety of calcium supplements over the years, but recently had an interesting experience. I read about using egg shells to get high quality calcium along with other nutrients. I started taking the equivalent of 1 egg shell per day (blended up thoroughly in a vitamix), and within 2-3 days, I noticed my somewhat chronic tendency for my muscles to spasm almost completely stopped. I only take some about 2-3 a week now, but the anti-spasmodic benefits continue.​

 

[Mary]

Very interesting @Wayne! I am taking a food-based calcium supplement from Rainbow Light - I don't know what the food base is though ....

 

[Wayne]

Very interesting @Wayne!

I thought so too! Here's some links you may want to check out... -- I found the second one about the amount of calcium in bone broth surprising. -- The 3rd link sort of makes the case for adding egg shells to bone broth.

https://www.mamanatural.com/how-to-make-eggshell-calcium/

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/bone-broth-calcium/

https://risingmoonnutrition.blogspot.com/2013/01/food-as-medicine-bone-broth.html

 

[L'engle]

I have issues with calcium and magnesium, needing just the right amount of one of the other to sleep, but it is different every night and has been until lately switching between needing one and the other.

Lately I am just needing magnesium but the amount is hard to predict and though it decreases with time if I have any thing with vitamin d or lithium (plus possibly other unknown factors) the magnesium loss increases again for a while before trying to normalize. I haven't yet managed to get to a stage where the levels normalize without somehow triggering more magnesium loss.

I think vitamin A or K2 are responsible for the change in not alternating between needing calcium and magnesium anymore. I have been taking vitamin A steadily for the past two months and K2 sporadically as I became keyed up from one kind (mk7) and got insomnia from another (mk4).

Still trying to figure out what will happen if the magnesium gets to where I need only small amounts, whether things will normalize or something else weird will happen. I don't sleep if I over or underestimate the magnesium amount. I really wish it was more forgiving. I wouldn't mind taking magnesium every night to sleep well if it was a predictable amount that I could use each day without trouble.