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Finding and identifying deficiencies while on SMP (Methylation Protocol)

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
One thing this has shown me is the power of boosting methylation.
You're exactly right!

Methylation is involved in almost every bodily biochemical reaction, and occurs billions of times every second in our cells, managing or contributing to a wide range of crucial bodily functions, including:

Detoxification
Immune function
Maintaining DNA
Energy production
Mood balancing
Controlling inflammation

Sound familiar? It helps our bodies respond to environmental stressors, to detoxify, and to adapt and rebuild. Lowered methylation function contributes to diseases, including:

ME/CFS
Cardiovascular Disease
Cancer
Diabetes
Allergies, immune system, and digestive problems
Neurological conditions
Mood and psychiatric disorders
Miscarriages, fertility, and problems in pregnancy
Aging

That’s why optimizing methylation contributes to health improvement, and reducing symptoms.
It seems to put your body in super detox mode but like an engine it's going to use up available fuel the faster it's pushed.
Exactly. And not just super detox mode, super mode of helping allergies, immune function, neurological function, etc.

If you speed up parts occur, you have to speed all of it in a balanced approach. You also need to get rid of the waste products and ensure things that need recycling, like glutathione, methionine, and homocysteine are getting recycled.

We were fortunate to have an expert doctor fix my child's methylation over time. She returned to high level sports training and competition, and over a 2 year period, he ramped up her methylation to meet her body's increased demands during the sports season, then slowed it down when out of season. Watching that process taught me a lot about how the cofactors work together and how to manipulate methylation.
I really don't see any other way than this type of testing to avoid the pitfalls. Since everyone is different the deficiencies will vary from person to person. Maybe one day by use of test data tied in with genetics information a table/database might be formed to allow someone to input their raw genetics and will tell them what they are likely to become deficient in when boosting methylation.
Exactly. There are tools today where you can get a decent idea of how your methylation genes are likely to express themselves. We've used them and found the theories to work.

But, environmental factors, like infections, diet, toxicity, etc. can impact how the genes express themselves. "Your mileage may vary."

Testing periodically, like every 9-12 months, is wise. Every test has a theme and you can see where bottlenecks are occurring and how to unblock them and where the subsequent bottlenecks are likely to occur too head them off.

My family tends to need huge amounts of B6 in the form of P5P - it shows up again and again. The genetics don't necessarily shout it out (or maybe we're not looking at the right genes) but B6 is used in methylation and hemoglobin and sphingolipid production. You can likely see why not having enough can contribute to ME/CFS.

So, even though the "daily value" of B6 is about 1.5mg, and toxicity has been reported in some people at 200mg, my body seems to drink up 350mg a day and fall apart without that much. If I didn't test, I never would have learned about it. And deficiency shows up in bottlenecks all through the test.
In my experience when these deficiencies hit it's pretty devastating if you don't know what's going on. For me recently I was only taking 800mcg of MB12 and 400mcg of MFolate for a few weeks. I took extra potassium, which has helped me before, and tried extra MB12 (to address possible methyltrap) but I never suspected Zinc. Once methylation has left you deficient in something IMO you're going to find that you're very sensitive to SMP supplements.

It seems keeping things in balance is the trick here. But without testing and unless you know the "feeling" of each deficiency (I got pretty good at knowing the flavor of potassium deficiency) then testing is the way to go (assuming it does job identifying deficiencies.)
Balance is the key. You have to get the entire process, with all its cofactors, working from end to end. Once you have it under control, you can ramp it up or down to cope with stresses your body encounters.

And, it has to be what works for you, your genes, your toxic load and other cell dangers.

So many people try one or two nutrients, like folate or B12, and start to experience symptoms as they are doing too much to start, missing cofactors, or inadvertently mobilizing toxins they aren't ready to get rid of and just reabsorb.

This is why people say it didn't work for them, they can't tolerate methylating supplements, and they quit. Its extremely unfortunate, as it is impossible to be well without having properly functioning methylation. And worse, it can lead to cancer and mental illness.

Vexing, but worth figuring out.;)
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I'm doing somewhat better, I think I'm identifying deficiencies and correcting. Still up and down but better overall. One thing I hadn't considered is Folate deficiency. I've basically been staying away from it completely (unless in food) especially MFolate. But I probably need to supplement at least a minimum dosage? I'm almost scared of this at this point.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Good link on common deficiencies while on the SMP: click here

Here is a list of the most common critical deficiencies:

  • All the B Vitamins, particularly folate, B12, B6 and B2
  • Calcium
  • Magnesium
  • Iron
  • D3
  • K2
  • Selenium
  • Vitamin A
  • Iodine
  • Lithium
  • Essential Fatty Acids
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I've got a question about supplementing Iron. How does one do it? I've heard stories about feeding Candida and possible use of Lactoferrin?
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
So in the last couple of weeks I believe I have uncovered 3 deficiencies by trial and error taking one supplement at a time. They are Zinc, Iron and Lithium. I believe at one time I was deficient in Copper also.

I tried a small amount of mfolate a couple of days ago and it made me feel worse. I don't expect i can take it again until I've discovered all the deficiencies. But once that's done I should be good.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
Do you take it by itself?

Usually the recommendation for low stomach acid - other than testing it directly - is to take one betain-hcl tablets/cupsule and gradually increase till discomfort starts. Then take a decreased dose.

In my case just one capsule moved my deficient iron markers (TIBC, TSAT, transferrin) in a better but still not normal place. Already 2 capsules raised serum iron too high. Heart some need grams of this stuff to have better nutrient absorptions. So it's a very individual thing.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Just dawned on me that betaine is TMG! (Betaine Anhydrous). Does anyone know if Betaine HCI acts as the TMG methylation shortcut also?

From: http://www.raysahelian.com/betaine.html



Betaine Hydrochloride versus TMG
I am not sure but I think betaine and TMG are the same thing. Betaine hcl may be different. The HCl form has an extremely sour taste while the anhydrous has a mild, pleasant taste. Besides the taste, HCl may be used as a digestive aid for people with low stomach acid because of its high acidity while the anhydrous form does not include this benefit. Betaine hydrochloride is betaine with hydrochloric acid, but there could be confusion in the marketplace with some companies confusing betaine hcl for TMG. For instance, I saw a label on a bottle that said Betaine Hcl (TMG). Perhaps the makers of this product were confusing the two.
Betaine hydrochloric acid is sold as a digestive aid supplement and is recommended by some nutritionists as a supplemental source of hydrochloric acid for people who have a deficiency of stomach acid production.
It is not clear to me whether betaine hcl, in addition to providing hydrochloric acid to aid digestion, also has similar effects in the body as betaine or TMG.
I searched Medline for studies on betaine hcl and its role in health and digestion, but we could not find any human studies. Therefore, at this time, we can't say what role betaine hcl has on digestion, and who is a candidate to benefit from this supplement. We also don't know whether the dosages of betaine hcl provided in many supplement products are too low, adequate, or too high, or whether they are effective. The standard dose of betaine hcl appears to be 10 grains (650 mg).
 
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Messages
43
I always test low for zinc and magnesium so slowly raising these.

Just ordered B1,B2,B3 so will be adding these in small amounts back into my protocol was taking brewers yeast to cover all the bases but this stuff sent me up the wall.

I have been looking into lithium but I am thinking I better steady the ship first
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I started with lithium.. Just one 5mg tablet at a time with Iodine. It seems to have a nice relaxing effect at first. I will feel really good but a little jittery late in the day with some anxiety. And seem to wake with some anxiety. The studies showed that lithium is supposed to increase sensitivity to cortisol If feels like it's lowering cortisol.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
I have experienced shortage of B2, twice. For first 5 years could only seem to absorb folate sublingual. Worked 3 years to get my ferritin level from 9 to 50. Vit D is low without supplementation.
 
Messages
43
I started with lithium.. Just one 5mg tablet at a time with Iodine. It seems to have a nice relaxing effect at first. I will feel really good but a little jittery late in the day with some anxiety. And seem to wake with some anxiety. The studies showed that lithium is supposed to increase sensitivity to cortisol If feels like it's lowering cortisol.

My anxiety is high at the moment so it's probably best to leave the lithium out for a while after reading your experience with it.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
My anxiety is high at the moment so it's probably best to leave the lithium out for a while after reading your experience with it.

It's hard for me to know what to think at the moment for Lithium. If it increases your sensitivity to cortisol then that should mean less cortisol is more. So it should help someone with low cortisol. But it "feels" like it's lowering cortisol although I don't have the increased inflammation from taking this (so far anyway)
 
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Messages
43
It's hard for me to know what to think at the moment for Lithium. If it increases your sensitivity to cortisol then that should me less cortisol is more. So it should help someone with low cortisol. But it "feels" like it's lowering cortisol although I don't have the increased inflammation from taking this (so far anyway)

I know the Mrs was taking lithium to help with the menopause she was doing fine for a few weeks then all hell broke loose,it sort of put me off it.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I've found again I have a Potassium deficiency. I've told myself again and again if I take Methyl B12 I'll need to take potassium. Finally figured this out yesterday after weeks of suffering. Don't know how I missed it since it's probably the most likely deficiency in SMP land. (banging head against a wall). We'll anyway I'm learning that to address these most likely are the big 3 (Potassium, Magnesium and Zinc), leaving MB12 and MFolate out of the picture for now. I'm not taking any MFolate and just a smige of MB12 here and there. I needed 370mg of potassium today because I took 1/4th of an Enzymatic MB12.
MB12 deficiency (Methyltrap) is horrible and I've experienced MFolate deficiency also and it feels very bad (in a brain chemistry type of way). Potassium not so much messes directly with your head as it just makes you feel awful. After weeks of it and not knowing what it might be you might think you have something really wrong with you and your days are numbered. I had the same experience with Zinc being low.
I'm trying to get to a place where I can just stop taking everything for a while and feel decent. I'm encouraged that I might be getting there if I can cover my deficiencies. As much as SMP can possibly give you, it sure can take everything away if you don't know what you're doing.
 
Messages
40
I'm trying to get to a place where I can just stop taking everything for a while and feel decent. I'm encouraged that I might be getting there if I can cover my deficiencies. As much as SMP can possibly give you, it sure can take everything away if you don't know what you're doing.

The thing is that it all isn't quite clear. Who actually really knows what they are doing? Isn't it trial and error for probably almost everybody, even doctors? If one had to rely on blood tests only most would not be able to try/do anything at all. I had several crashes in the last year. The biggest one due to upping Vitamin D levels without supplementing Magnesium. Yes, there will always be someone who could have told me to take Magnesium when I take Vitamin D. Nevertheless I would not have been able to comprehend that information. Without experiencing it oneself most people will not be able to understand the consequences of supplementing an isolated nutrient at a high dose. This is also why I almost entirely stopped giving advice to other people, except if they really want me to. I understand now that I don't know anything. This is so insanely complex and even more, among all the correlations it is almost impossible to tell cause and consequences apart.

I am experimenting, trying and failing and luckily more succeeding than failing. The improvement is gradual, but slowly things seem to tilt towards the right direction. Nevertheless, to me it is experimenting and hoping.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
The thing is that it all isn't quite clear. Who actually really knows what they are doing? Isn't it trial and error for probably almost everybody, even doctors? If one had to rely on blood tests only most would not be able to try/do anything at all. I had several crashes in the last year. The biggest one due to upping Vitamin D levels without supplementing Magnesium. Yes, there will always be someone who could have told me to take Magnesium when I take Vitamin D. Nevertheless I would not have been able to comprehend that information. Without experiencing it oneself most people will not be able to understand the consequences of supplementing an isolated nutrient at a high dose. This is also why I almost entirely stopped giving advice to other people, except if they really want me to. I understand now that I don't know anything. This is so insanely complex and even more, among all the correlations it is almost impossible to tell cause and consequences apart.

I am experimenting, trying and failing and luckily more succeeding than failing. The improvement is gradual, but slowly things seem to tilt towards the right direction. Nevertheless, to me it is experimenting and hoping.

@Rita1979 Thank you, this is timely, I just started addressing Vitamin D which I'm hoping might be my final deficiency. It won't be if I don't up my Magnesium perhaps. Thanks for the reminder.

I agree it is very complex and since everyone is different any advice depend on the genetics of whom you are talking to. There may be some environmental factors that everyone is dealing with (pesticides/gmo, air, water, emf pollution perhaps). Then perhaps the advice for that would work across everyone? (Like needing extra Manganese due to the Glyphosate in the food).

I don't know but I seem to be having some success with believing I'm deficient in certain things and attempting to identify and correct.