Documentary: Undercover in German Lyme Clinics

[Jesse2233]

@nandixon

is there any symptom that you would point to as being definitively infectious vs cytokine mediated?

 

[nandixon]

@nandixon

is there any symptom that you would point to as being definitively infectious vs cytokine mediated?

The response to infections is cytokine mediated so that's pretty well inseparable. But the point is that an infection is not necessary to cause inappropriate cytokine activation. Many non-infectious diseases have this aspect.

 

[Aubry]

This is a very interesting read!
Link: https://huib.me/en/blog/item/92-the-lost-link-between-als-and-lyme-disease

The lost link between ALS and Lyme disease
Written by Huib
Knowledge about emergent diseases normally increases over time. Lyme Disease seems to be an exception to this rule. Claims that governments and scientists made around 1990, seem to have been forgotten. This article explores the lost link between ALS and Lyme. ALS is also known as Motor Neurone Disorder (MND) or as Lou Gehrig's Disease, after the famous Yankee baseball player who died from it in the 1940's. It is still claimed there is no known cause nor cure for it.
Reading time: 7 minutes. Watching time: 55 minutes

 

[andyguitar]

Another way of looking at this subject is to look at it in a historical context. Ticks have been around as long as humans. And they have probably been passing on a variety of infections for as long as we have been walking the earth. If Lyme Disease could be passed via sexual activity and from an infected mother to her unborn child how come the human race has survived? As for this nonsense along the lines of 'We know its a big problem but it does'nt show up as the tests are not accurate' How about if someone came up with a theory that CFS is caused by a new strain of bubonic plague but it did'nt show up in the standard test for it? So a new test is invented and thousands of people test positive. Treatment begins. Could go on for years. During that time some people report that some of their mixed bag of symptoms improve. Would that be enough to prove CFS is caused by Bubonic plague? It then turns out the new test is a bunch of crap. The choice then is to invent another test to test for Bubonic plague to prove the theory or dump the entire pile of crap.

 

[duncan]

Another way of looking at this subject is to look at it in a historical context.

I encourage this. But don't just play lip service to it. Parse down on the facts, especially the last 35 years or so.

Did you know that researchers in the 70's and early 80's were convinced Lyme was caused by a virus because antibiotic regimens were so frequently ineffective?

Did you know that even after they figured out Lyme was a bacteria, and they found some abx that helped many, it was still decided that it was necessary to arbitrarily split patients' symptoms into major and minor categories because those pesky "minor" symptoms could not be resolved - and it is of course so often the combined impact of all the symptoms that takes its toll. Many of those symptoms categorized as minor in fact levied major impact on patients suffering with them, and each in its own right could be individually debilitating. Despite the continued presence of those "minor" symptoms, patients would be routinely pronounced cured if the "major" symptoms resolved.

Did you know that early researchers proclaimed doxy and rocephin as being curative, but as recently as two to three years ago Johns Hopkins researchers - as well as others - demonstrated conclusively that both of those abx were often insufficient to totally eradicate Bb in vitro? So, in effect, what has been standard treatment for 20 years has been revealed to fall way short of always curative?

Did you know that diagnostics are controlled by just a few firms, and there is arguably a conflict of interest in bringing new and better diagnostics to the market?

Did you know that for years the CDC and other vested US agencies have declared that Lyme incidence in the US was no more than about 30,000 per annum - but recently had to jack this estimate up ten-fold to over 300,000? Many are convinced this revised figure will prove to be a lowball estimate.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Spend some real time exploring whats going on in Lyme land. You may be surprised.

 

[andyguitar]

The whole thing stands on: Is there a reliable test that shows an active infection passed by a tick is the cause of the patients symptoms. The answer is no.

 

[duncan]

That is incorrect. That an active Lyme infection is passed on by ticks to humans has been established for years, and to this day, even in the absence of direct testing, it is considered conclusive diagnostically if a patient develops an EM.

 

[justy]

Sorry have had to give up reading everything here since i am so much worse these days.

It could be an issue is some areas bit I am not convinced it is in all.

Have you seen the tick map from the Big Tick Project? Vets asked people to send them ticks and they tested them for infections and type of tick etc and then made a map. There is no where in the UK where there was no ticks that carried disease that were found.

http://www.bigtickproject.co.uk/ticks-in-the-uk/uk-tick-threat-map/

Sorry no data for Ireland, only N.I.

I don't know whether or not Lyme specialists will routinely test for the various other infections that can cause ME/CFS-like symptoms, in order to rule out other infectious causes.

Many do test for the whole range of TBI such as Bartonella etc, plus the mycoplasmas, chlmaydias, viral reactivation and mould. Most like Horowitz or KDM believe it is a musti systemic illness in many people so do a lot of testing. Others, like Jemsek dont do testing for TBI as they know the tests are so awful. They treat clinically, used pulsed abx etc and have very good results.

So why use a test if it comes out positive for nearly everyone?

I know a lot of people, myself included who did not test positive on the Elispot LTT from Arminlabs.

she got LOTS of tick bites. All the approximately 20 dogs got tick bites regularly. They never got sick.

My dog also used to get a lot, never got ill. But because he reacted to them he always got an antibiotic shot if he had a lot of bites. Plus have you noticed that dogs are basically bomb proof? They are not like humans, have a more natural lifestyle and probably;ly have better functioning immune systems than most humans.

are there documented cases of Chronic Lyme with ME-like symptoms being completely cured by antibiotics?

On a lYme FB group i am on nearly all have been diagnosed at some point with M.E/CFS, unless they have had a recent known bite.

A lot of them are recovering - some fully. My experience is this:

Only 1 Dr seems to have good success rates and thats Dr Jemsek in Washington DC. He is a heavy hitter, but pulses abx. He has long term M.E patients getting better (sick 15-20 years)

secondly the other group i have noticed is older or middle aged women who have been sick for 20 years plus. These sort of people (myself included) seem to have a lot of co morbidity (mcas, eds, pots, mvp etc) and dont seem to get better at all. In fact this group often gets sicker and i question if they have Lyme at all.

 

[Inara]

Not much. Dogs just might not show it like we do unless it's in their joints. I suspect that like humans, Lyme in joints in dogs may not be as common as some think. I'd also wager that neuroLyme is frequent in dogs, only there isn't a lot of canine cognitive testing.

Can you back that up with examples? The dogs always seemed very heathy, apart from dying old or two exceptions (heart failure and died, renal failure but recovered). You would see anything unusual with Lyme, wouldn't you?

 

[andyguitar]

Neurolyme in dogs

 

[duncan]

@Inara, Sorry, I don't study Lyme in dogs other than peripherally as it would relate back to humans in terms of diagnostics and surveillance. Oh, I suppose anything that would fall under "sickness behaviour", a term I am loath to use, but it was invented by a vet, and it has its purpose with animals who cannot communicate illness with us (so we must observe). Maybe horses would be better examples, as they get Lyme, too. Lethargy, slower movements in dogs - not so much whining or whimpering (unless major joints are involved); rather what some might interpret as characteristics of old age.

The C6 test is a good one for dogs, at least for future reference should you ever have cause for concern.

If your dog does not seem sick, then I would not worry. If the patient seems asymptomatic, why mess with him/her? There are many who would espouse the same approach with humans relative to TBDs that include not only Lyme, but also babesia and bartonella. I am not sure I subscribe to that stance, but it carries a lot of merit.

@andyguitar - careful, sometimes one's statements betrays what they know or do not know. I suggest you look into hosts of Bb and how and where Bb can and does migrate in those different hosts.

 

[andyguitar]

Like i say if you look at it in a historical context then, according to your recent posts about lyme in animals, they along with us would would not have survived. As to what i know. Fake test results leading to dangerous and expensive medical treatments. This is fraud on a large scale. In the UK the maximum penalty is 10 years in prison for fraud. If any one has died as a result of thoses fake tests and dangerous treatments then we are looking at manslaughter. Maximum penalty is life in prison.

 

[dadouv47]

Like i say if you look at it in a historical context then, according to your recent posts about lyme in animals, they along with us would would not have survived. As to what i know. Fake test results leading to dangerous and expensive medical treatments. This is fraud on a large scale. In the UK the maximum penalty is 10 years in prison for fraud. If any one has died as a result of thoses fake tests and dangerous treatments then we are looking at manslaughter. Maximum penalty is life in prison.

And what is the appropriate punishment for those who went from bedbound to being able to practice exercise again? I guess they used the best placebo ever if that's a fraud.

 

[andyguitar]

My post relates to the fraudsters who have been using fake tests to diagnose chronic lyme. Not genuine tests and treatments.

 

[pattismith]

My mother who was very ill (with similar clinical signs I have) went to a doc who sent her blood to a lab doing a quark test (WB)...Of course it came back positive...So he started an antibiotic treatment...Which cleared a good part of her symptoms...

Before that, she had seen a bunch of rheumatic specialists that gave her paracetamol, and immunosuppressants that almost killed her and did nothing on her illness course...

A few time later, I sent my blood to a good lab for the lyme LTT test (and a good WB) that came back both negative....So I didn't take antibiotic, and my illness increased during the 6 next years, until the time I realized (by chance and hasard) that Macrolides were efficient on some of my symptoms...

What is the morals of this story, someone can tell me?

 

[duncan]

@andyguitar , although Lyme can and does kill on occasion, most of the time it either resolves with appropriate treatment, or it survives in different reservoirs within its hosts and "merely" inflicts varying degrees of disability.

Some suggest this is reflective of the highly evolved nature of the spirochete, i.e., it does not usually kill its host, and therefore it endures and proliferates.

 

[justy]

My post relates to the fraudsters who have been using fake tests to diagnose chronic lyme. Not genuine tests and treatments.

Does that include a certain Belgian Dr?
Because i know of many patients treated after using the LTT and other Lyme tests who have had significant recoveries. Most of these people had a longstanding M.E dx.
I know of one patient who went from paralysis and wheelchair bound to walking, kayaking etc. Was this genuine or fake?

 

[msf]

I also think alarms bells should have sounded when Armin's tests found 11 members of John Caudwell's family positive for Lyme (Caudwell is the philanthropic Phones4U billionaire). Ref: here.

It is pretty improbable that an entire family of 11 are all positive for Borrelia, so you know something must be wrong with Armin's Lyme tests. Borrelia is not contagious by normal social contact (although there is some evidence it might be contagious through unprotected sexual contact), so it is very unlikely to find a whole family of 11 infected.

Even in a Lyme endemic area, studies have shown that the prevalence of Borrelia seropositivity is only 10.9%. So the chances of 11 members of his family all testing positive for Borrelia can be calculated at 10.9/100 to the power of 11 = 0.000000000026, which is around a likelihood of 38 billion to 1 against. In other words a vanishingly small probability.

]

I don´t want to argue with your conclusion, but I think your working is bit misleading, as it assumes everyone in a Lyme endemic area is at the same risk of getting Lyme.

 

[msf]

Prevalence doesn't say anything how the illness is distributed in the population.

Damn, A.B. beat me to it!

 

[msf]

I think with all this we need to keep in mind people´s biases, both out there in the world and here on this forum. I may have him wrong, but I feel Hip may warn you against going to Augsburg say, because they will just give you a Lyme diagnosis, and instead advise you to go to see Dr. Chia, who will just give you an enterovirus diagnosis...As for the program, can anyone who has watched it say how transparent the whole process was? Did they get any other doctors to sign off on their blood samples, etc? Or did they just send them in themselves? Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I am not saying that they must have cooked the books, I am just suggesting that if they wanted to convincing people it would probably help to make the process transparent.