Some concerns about homeopathy

[Mrs Sowester]

there were things l had to do if l wanted my body to heal. Or l could just see myself as a victim and stay sick. Yes you can heal

Do you understand how what you have written here comes across as victim blaming? You say you had to do (unspecified) things so your body could heal. Your choosing to do these things made you better because you didn't want to be a victim.
You go on to say that, yes, I can heal. Therefore, by implication I am choosing to be a victim by not doing these unspecified things you did.

 

[daisybell]

Is it just me or is it actually true that beliefs almost never change as a result of debate about facts?
I think it's rare for our beliefs to be based solely on facts - and we tend to hold onto beliefs a lot more strongly than facts.... we defend them vigorously and the more facts that are presented to challenge our beliefs, the more we will fight our 'belief corner'.

Personally, I believe the only way to change beliefs is to reflect on why we hold them, and then challenge ourselves around that.... which means we have to be open to the fact we might be wrong......

 

[barbc56]

Is it just me or is it actually true that beliefs almost never change as a result of debate about facts?
I think it's rare for our beliefs to be based solely on facts - and we tend to hold onto beliefs a lot more strongly than facts.... we defend them vigorously and the more facts that are presented to challenge our beliefs, the more we will fight our 'belief corner'.

Personally, I believe the only way to change beliefs is to reflect on why we hold them, and then challenge ourselves around that.... which means we have to be open to the fact we might be wrong......

Yes. It's called cognitive dissonance.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.html

 

[Hajnalka]

Janet had posted this interesting read in another thread: Why facts don`t change our minds
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

 

[HowToEscape?]

Always funny when homeopathy proponents talk about big pharma. Let's talk about industrial homeopathic manufacturer Boiron and its revenue...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiron

There is something called the "caregivers placebo effect" It's the owners perception that the animal is getting better, the pet more loving attention, hypervigilance about the pets symtoms, etc.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/11/ca...-ineffective-therapy-is-working-when-it-isnt/

There are many studies that show homeopathy does not work on farm animals. I will post citations on this later as I am too tired, atm.

That worked with my cat. When he was old he had various discomforts ( after a lifetime of perfect kitty health) and of course he couldn't tell me what they were. Vet just said he had failing kidneys and bad teeth. Some warmth, attention and petting his little head, then he'd relax and the problem with seem to go away. Did I have miracle healing powers? Probably not. Did I make him feel better? Ask a little bundle of fuzz and whiskers that went from moping and sad to happy and warm.

If some water that was supposedly shaken and banged on a King James Bible fixes your pet's problem, then the same water they drink would also fix the problem. I suppose you could smack their water bowl with the Bible (it must be the King James Version) but I'll bet thinking holy thoughts or splashing a cross in it would do just as well.
Or maybe just clean their water bowl and refill it.

 

[erin]

I was more than skeptical about homeopathy. I was desperate, could not sleep and my best friend at the time begged me to try this particular homeopath that she sees. I laughed and said "no way". I believe there was an f-word in between those two word too.

I refused her many times but it must be debilitating conditions ( not being able to sleep for a week) made me to go for it. She was there at the homeopath and she phoned me after her consultation, insisted that there was a space that the homeopath could see me in half an hour time. It was a rushed decision. It was so expensive I would never have done it if I had a "normal" state of mind. But I went, I could not think clear, I gave in. I was desperate.

It was a boring 40 minutes consultation, consisted of questions I had to answer. Some of them were sooooo irrelevant according to me. There was absolutely no psychological sides to the questions. There was a lot about , diagnosed illnesses, surgical ops if I had any, physical treats and sensations, timing of them, aversions, cravings etc. She never made any eye contact when I was looking at her and if I was looking somewhere else I caught her looking at me very straight and examining (which annoyed me).

She looked nothing like a professional, the consultation was in a cottage and she looked and dressed like an older lady (this was many years ago I was quite young then, so probably she was not that old) who's just gonna go to the kitchen and put the oven gloves on, bring out the biscuits that she baked. She just looked like an ordinary house wife.

At the time, I was thinking this was a bad trip, I was hallucinating; not only I bought my friend's stupid idea, I was loosing 80 quids too!

Then the homeopath lady knelt down to a furniture in front of her and opened a drawer and gave me a small plastic sachet with one pill and a small tube of pills. Told me to take the one in the sachet at tonight and continue with the pills in the tube every night. And yes, 80 English Sterlings please!

I felt stupid and too late to refuse the whole thing. She also mumbled something that 15 minutes before/ after no food or whatever.

So I went back home, got ready with a difficulty as I was so ill. I was invited to a friends house for dinner. I took this pill in the sachet after dinner, since I payed all that money I had to. Some half an hour later I could hardly get myself home as I was falling to sleep fast! I got my self into my bed and woke up next morning after uncut sleep for 8,5 hours and felt like a human again. It was soooo good to be human again. Oh my, life was good! I could not believe that most people could sleep like this, I used to in the past!

And I continued with the other pills. Apparently I should be nil by mouth 15 - 20 minutes before and after and not handle the pills by hand etc friend suggesting the homeopathy taught me. The first pill I didn't do this I took it well after a meal but maybe I had water 10 minutes before I could not remember. But I took the pill from the sachet and hold it with my fingers. Still worked. I still don't know today what remedy this was. I was that uninterested in the beginning that I did not asked and she did not label the remedy. Which is not a very good practice I guess. But I owe that homeopath lady my sleeps! I think she was very good.

Well, after I finished the tube I never needed any homeopathy until I was diagnosed ME.

I went back to it. NHS gave it free (thanks to my GP), I was lucky we had a fantastic homeopathic hospital near by.

I guess I wrote about how most remedies helped me and kept my symptoms on the mild side after the diagnosis here in PR. Before this, I was going towards severe.

Now I don't have access to proper homeopath and I'm pretty bad. But I'm not saying if I had the homeopathy now I could be better.

I was getting worse and the homeopath at the hospital was noticing this. She was also a dr of conventional medicine. She sent me for brain scans and leg ecg, wanted me checked for MS too. Possibility of MS was cleared at that time.

I continued with some remedies that helped but I had to move to another country and spent most of the year there not in UK. I still go to whats left of the homeopathic hospital every year. But things are changed, there's a lot of pressure for closing down all homeopathic hospitals in UK. And they don't have the dispensary units, also the NHS connection is very weak now.

So, this was my homeopathic adventure. What do you think?

Could this be placebo, when I was not at all believing this was not going to help me? And regretting spending my money? Feeling really stupid buying into this "quackery"?

 

[HowToEscape?]

So why did I get ill and why have I remained ill, here 1km from the nearest road and neighbour, in the middle of ancient, organically managed pasture land, eating home cooked, unprocessed food, taking probiotics and fish oils? I'm sure it wasn't an Orgone blockage.

You must have pharmaceutical ideations.

 

[Dx Revision Watch]

Multiple Chemical Sensitivity is classified in the World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) at T78.4 (Allergy, Unspecified). I believe that is binding for all WHO member states, including the UK?

It's in the German modification (ICD-10-GM) which is managed, revised and updated by DIMDI.

Not binding in UK or other member states.

Compare addition of "Somatic symptom disorder" only to the U.S. specific, ICD-10-CM, that is managed, revised and updated by NCHS/CDC - not WHO, Geneva.

 

[Hajnalka]

@Dx Revision Watch, Thanks! I was actually thinking about you while writing this and thought this would be your topic.

Multiple Chemical Sensitivity is classified in the World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) at T78.4 (Allergy, Unspecified).

I took the citation not from a German site but from a UK site to be sure. So I thought it's not the German DIMDI but a UK version?

Not arguing, just genuinely a little confused with ICD. But I guess that's too off topic here. Will check it out (not for MCS) but ME. Still confused how Denmark can make it's own rules for example.

 

[HowToEscape?]

Let me tell you why I hate homeopathy. Just over ten years ago I was on a graduate scheme which involved a lot of travel. My colleague who I was on the road with received some bad news: her best friend from home had been diagnosed with a fairly aggressive cancer. While we were travelling from place to place I had to listen to my colleague beg her friend to follow her oncologist's advice. But her friend had seen a homeopath, who had come out with viciously irresponsible advice about 'natural' remedies, how chemotherapy was just big pharma's way of keeping you ill, how these companies had known how to cure cancer for years but held it back because there was no profit in it. About a year later her friend died, having only changed her mind to try chemotherapy at the last minute. I don't know if the outcome would have been different had she not tried the 'natural' approach, but I do know that the homeopath who sold her this anti-medicine crap is, frankly, a scumbag.

This is not an isolated case: how about homeopaths putting children at risk by advising their parents to avoid travel immunisations.

Wow. Of course I can't speculate about an alternative future for your friend but I can give another example.

A friend of mine got a diagnosis of stage for metastatic lung cancer 3 & 1/2 years ago. He was always so healthy that I was more than a bit jealous. he'd never bought a pack of cigarettes much less smoked them.

The prognosis was 3 to 6 months, with less than 5% chance of making it to one year. It had already spread it was in the brain liver, etc. He started on chemo but it didn't work very well, that type of cancer is rather aggressive. He bought a funeral plot and made plans.

But it turned out there was an experimental gene targeted therapy for the specific mutation of cancer that he had. He started on that, and a couple months later reported that no cancer could be detected. They knew there was some still lurking, but it wasn't affecting him. The next summer he did a cross the state fundraiser by bicycle (known as the Pan Mass challenge). He said the gene targeted drug should come with a warning: "this drug me make you feel so good you won't believe you were sick".

He spent some time on forums getting to know other people with lung cancer, and how they handled it. In year two he told me that the people he first met on the forums didn't post anymore: all but one were dead, and the one living was another person on a gene targeted drug from the same company. The company is a start up so it's actually "Small Pharma". I suppose if their discovery makes it all the way through FDA trials, they become "evil big Pharma".

Eventually, as expected, the cancer mutated in a way that made the drug ineffective, and it started to grow again. Once again, older chemo methods were only able to slow would not stop the cancer, and they had nasty side effects. But he wanted to stay around as long as possible for his kids.

After three good years the end came pretty quickly. That was three more years of living and three more years helping his kids grow up.

I'm not going to argue whether shaken water would have given him those three extra years, instead, ask people who tried it. You'll need to be quick; the people on the forum who tried alternative treatments for lung cancer and skipped normal medicine spoke of those methods only briefly, because they all died within months not years.

 

[TiredSam]

So, this was my homeopathic adventure. What do you think?

Could this be placebo, when I was not at all believing this was not going to help me? And regretting spending my money? Feeling really stupid buying into this "quackery"?

You hadn't slept for a week. Then after a meal at a friend's house you felt sleepy and slept all night.

When my ME started it messed up my sleep and I rarely got a good night's sleep for weeks on end. My sleep is now much better. I can think of a few reasons why that might be and pat myself on the back for them, but then again maybe it's just random fluctuations and I got lucky. One thing I know is that homeopathy didn't come into it, unless you count tap water. I had a very stressful period some months ago when I didn't sleep at all from Monday to Thursday. On Thursday night I slept long and sound. No homeopathy.

I also have a couple of stories about people diagnosed with cancer who decided to go the alternative route, which I don't particularly want to tell. The first one changed her mind when it was too late. The other one is very current, the wife of a friend of mine who has refused all conventional treatment and advice and is going "her own way". He phoned me this evening. Respecting people's right to believe in whatever ****ery they want involves ignoring the devastation it causes to their loved ones when they get something serious and decide that sniffing some essential oils is a sensible alternative to the advice every doctor they see gives them.

 

[skipskip30]

<snip for forum cleanliness>

So, this was my homeopathic adventure. What do you think?

Could this be placebo, when I was not at all believing this was not going to help me? And regretting spending my money? Feeling really stupid buying into this "quackery"?

Erin, there's no need to feel stupid.

I'd just like to provide an alternative theory.

I don't know how long you hadn't slept for before you saw the homeopath but you seem to say you were very tired and ill that first night so you may have slept just because of that. There's always the natural flacuations in insomnia too, some nights you just sleep better than others. Because the good nights sleep coincided with taking the pill you focused your attention to that and the link with the pill (naturally I might add). After that first night the placebo effect is in full swing, even after you finish the course of pills because she just told you to take that many, not to carry on indefinitely.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think, just that there are other possibilities.

 

[alex3619]

Thought that the problem is rather that most countries only follow these codes on paper and no one cares what happens in real life?

These are bureaucratic reporting codes and have little impact on medical care. ICD codes are treated as a joke by many doctors, who pick and choose the code based on what insurance reimbursement they get. Its doctors who are saying this, though I am not sure how widespread that practice is.

 

[Sushi]

A few comments and and one post have been removed from this thread as personal attacks. Please remember--stick to commenting on the content rather than the poster.

Thanks

 

[alex3619]

Let me run a thought experiment. Homeopathy supposedly works by extreme dilution of supposed ingredients. The more dilute the better.

Just about every chemical known winds up in our water supply. Most of it is extremely dilute. Some of it is filtered or chemically modified, but that is just the same as even more dilution from a chemist's perspective.

So tap water is the most powerful homeopathic medicine around. Now you might argue that its a hodgepodge of all of them, which would be a fair argument. You might also argue its contaminated by nasty stuff, which is also fair.

Homeopathy is Pagan magic. Its based on the magical principles of similarity and contagion. I looked into this decades ago.

If you find it helps then continue. I will never recommend it.

 

[alex3619]

Woohoo, we've hit the Big Pharma jackpot guys! As a shill for them I'm just lounging at home, raking in the money...

How do I sign up? I could always use more money.

 

[alex3619]

There is still no evidence of this claim, and a great deal of evidence that it isn't true. Repeating something doesn't make it any truer.

Sure it does, kind of. Its the magical law of three. Or three squared. Or something. A lot of magical thinking revolves around repeating wishes over and over.

 

[Woolie]

This isn't about homeopathy, but its a confession about a time when I let belief in a treatment get the better of me.

I'd been ill for about a year, and I had this book about "CFIDS". It set out a nutritional regime that included various supplements, such as Vitamin C, various B group vitamins, Magnesium, and other things I can't recall. The book implied that after a few months of this regime, I would enjoy full recovery.

I followed the advice, and spent a lot of money on the supplements. I was fully expecting the treatment to work as promised, and when it didn't, I felt quite angry and cheated. Luckily, I didn't spend my life savings on the treatments, but maybe that was just more luck than design.

I was doing a PhD in Psychology at the time, you'd think I would have been able to tell that this advice was untrustworthy, but because it had a sort of scientific ring to it, and because I wanted the hope, I bought into it.

The scientific veneer was what bought me. It sounded scientifically plausible.

So I've been there, and would never call anyone stupid for having faith in any treatment, no matter how dubious. Its human nature that sometimes hope triumphs over reason, and that's is a really good quality. I reserve my contempt for the treatments themselves.

I think there's something particularly nasty and dangerous about unsubstantiated claims made under the guise of science. And homeopathy is one of the worst offenders in the way - it uses science as a veneer to dupe the hopeful. That's really low.

 

[Skycloud]

Well, speaking for myself, l had to get out of a toxic relationship. Then it took time to recover from PTSD. I think these things are important for healing. Some people get stuck here l think. Then it was finding the diet that instigated healing.

I've found diet helpful too. I'm glad you are in a better place with your life now Brenda, it sounds as like you had a tough time there.

 

[alex3619]

Its human nature that sometimes hope triumphs over reason, and that's is a really good quality. I reserve my contempt for the treatments themselves.

Precisely. A long time ago (well in 1985 or so) I tried whatever my naturopath threw at me. Also various diets, exercise, meditation, Tai Chi, etc. We have hope and trust. Back then I was pro-authority.

I had yet to really study logic and reason, or the scientific method, although I was pro-science. That study all began in 1989. I am ignoring my earlier one year in biochemistry (1978) because it was about fact cramming, not the scientific process. I didn't finish that degree till 2002.

It wasn't just alternative medicine though. I did whatever my doctors suggested too. Including graded exercise and CBT.

At one point, and I vaguely recall this was before 1986, I was on six different drugs. The first was to help with IBS. Now the second was for a new symptom, then the third for yet another new symptom, and so on. Then I did some research. My first new symptom was probably a side effect to the first drug. The next symptom was probably a side effect of the second drug, etcetera. Then, to cap it off, the sixth drug can cause the symptoms I was originally being treated for. These symptoms were getting worse.

As soon as I stopped all the drugs my symptoms returned to the original state ... not good but manageable.

A few years later I was put on a tricyclic antidepressant, and I no longer recall what it was. It was supposed to help me tolerate my severe muscle pain, but it failed at that. What it did do is get rid of my chronic IBS. I still get gut symptoms, but no longer the same pattern as IBS, and not as frequently.

Eventually, and it can take a long time if you are as stubborn as I am, I figured out the medical "authorities" did not know what they were talking about. Medicine is great at what it really understands, but the less it understands the worse it is. Its not just alternative medicine that has a credibility problem.

Individual doctors are plagued by this incapacity within medical disciplines. Its all compounded by their not having sufficient time to investigate patients, and update their knowledge. Evidence based medicine has some successes and some bad failures. Its not adequate.

The entire medical system, globally, is problematic, though there are undeniable successes there too. It needs to improve. Which means it needs to move to even more reliable methods. We call that medical science, and that excludes psychobabble.