• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

"Graded Exercise Therapy causes harm in ME/CFS. Everyone knows that, right?" (blog post)

Tom Kindlon

Senior Member
Messages
1,734
September 4 blog post

by iamclarkellis

https://autodidactauthor.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/get-causes-harm-everyone-knows-that-right/

[As well as the issue in general, a lot of this is about Keith Geraghty and colleagues' recent paper, "Myalgic
encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome patients’ reports of symptom changes following cognitive behavioural therapy, graded exercise therapy and pacing treatments: Analysis of a primary survey compared with secondary surveys". A quote from a paper of mine is also used. Note that it is not saying that everyone is harmed by Graded Exercise Therapy. Tom]
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
I thought this thoughtful post from Facebook was worth highlighting:

https://www.facebook.com/TomKindlon...=893717710776355&comment_tracking={"tn":"R0"}

Peter Trewhitt
An excellent post, thank you.

It should be, despite much misconception by the medical establishment particularly here in the UK, self-evident that in ME, where post-exertional malaise is the core symptom, that GET is a profoundly risky enterprise. There is clear physiological evidence for an underlying exercise intolerance. To use GET as a routine intervention of choice is as rational as universally prescribing nuts for people with nut allergies.

Despite the ongoing denial of the PACE appologists, there is no reliable evidence that GET for ME has any statistically significant benefit in the published randomised control trials, and in survey data, as reported here, a majority of participants report serious harm. Having said that, in both trials and surveys, some participants report improvement following GET. Given we as patients have spent years objecting to researchers ignoring our views, is it worth also considering the views of the small percentage that believe GET has helped them?

What are the possible explanations:

Misdiagnosis: The published randomised control trials that purportedly support GET use very lose definitions of ‘CFS/ME’ where ‘the symptom of chronic fatigue’ may be confounded with ‘Chronic Fatigue Syndrome’. In general practice the confusion about accurate diagnosis is potentially even greater, meaning that we can not be certain that all survey respondents have ME. Consequently it is a probability that some participants in both were misdiagnosed as having ME when they in reality had a different fatigue related condition, eg ‘depression’, where GET may be an appropriate intervention.

Coincidence: Given the variability of ME, with some exhibiting spontaneous recovery or cycles of relapse and remission, it is possible that by chance some people experienced spontaneous improvement at the same time as undergoing GET. Given we all look for external explanations for changes in our condition, it is not unsurprising that people in this situation attribute the improvement to GET.

Placebo: Placebo, in general use has two related meanings, an intervention that results in some nonspecific improvement, but not by the hypothesised mechanism, or an intervention that does not result in improvement but because of the act of intervening convinces people they have improved. Because of the poor design of the randomised control trials it is not possible to rule out a placebo effect. So it is probable that some reported improvement following GET was an artefact of intervention having taken place rather than anything inherent in the intervention.

Indoctrination: The PACE and related trials placed great emphasis on convincing participants that GET will help them. In PACE itself participants were clearly exposed to the belief that this was already an established successful intervention. Many GET practitioners firmly believe on the basis of poor, but peer reviewed and widely lauded, science that this intervention is helpful. Given the ‘experts’ believe GET works, some participants inevitably will believe it has helped them, even if there is no objective improvement. This is likely to be reinforced by ‘cognitive dissonance’, where participants seek to rationalise participating in a demanding activity when it is what they are least able to do.

Restructuring total activity: When I record my total daily activity in the context of a self imposed objective or external intervention, I often find what I thought was an overall improvement turns out to be an improvement in a specific activity at the expense of other activities. In effect I subconsciously do less of other things in order to facilitate the target activity. In this context it is possible that some GET participants get better at GET, not because of a general improvement, but because they learn to do less of other things. Now this is easily addressed by electronic activity monitoring (eg Fitbit), but published pro GET studies have either failed to undertake such monitoring or suppressed the results. Psychologically it is a fine distinction between getting better at GET and GET being helpful.

GET as pacing: Anecdotally one hears of GET practitioners that ignore the PACE model of arbitrary externally imposed increments of increased activity and ignore the advice to disregard adverse reactions to push through the ‘pain’. Here the practitioner creates a therapeutic environment where they are sensitive to the current abilities of the participant, use sensitive increments and pull back on any increase when there are adverse reactions. At a certain point such ‘GET’ becomes almost indistinguishable from pacing. Where the GET practitioner is an experienced and sensitive clinician this ‘softening’ of GET is perhaps inevitable.

GET actually helps some: At present we can not rule out the possibility that there are a small number of people with ME/CFS that are actually helped by GET. However we have no idea if this is the case, or if such a subgroup exists how to identify them. Certainly it is not reasonable to impose likely harm on a majority of people with ME on the off chance that it may help a yet as unidentified small minority.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
Melvin Ramsay wrote that ME is defined as "gets worse with exercise" so if a patient gets better with exercise they don't have ME.

When I joined the MEA in the eighties there was an article called "The Glass Ceiling" which was about how people with ME can get a bit fitter but they reach a point where they can go no further. It could be that patients in the study have just reached that point.

My own experience is that I can get a bit fitter by very gradually increasing exercise. It took months but I finally managed to get out my back door to a garden bench where I could sit in the sun for 5 minutes. I think Mark Van Ness has spoken about increasing that sort of fitness to achieve something you really want to do. No way are we talking "recovery".

I also found the hard way that we can increase out fitness quite a lot. When I was still moderate, I had to climb a steep hill to get my son to nursery. I got fitter till I could go up it no problem, I was able to do a lot more, but actually, it was just masking my symptoms till one day I just stopped being able to walk more than a few steps and needed a wheelchair ever since.

Exercise and exertion are so bad for us that it should be caution all the way.

Mithriel
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
@Mithriel

GET is exactly the wrong thing for us, probably there is no debate about that here.
Exercise itself is more complicated; I found that it had very different effects during different phases of the illness. Sometimes it helped, other times half as much definitely harmed. Many times it improved my quality of life, at other times it did not. What it never did is fix the underlying illness.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
I can get out and walk when I'm having a non busy day and going through a 'good' period. The only thing that walking does to "help" is that it helps me feel less stiff. I stay within my boundaries though and have never been able to increase my stamina in 15 years.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
I can get out and walk when I'm having a non busy day and going through a 'good' period. The only thing that walking does to "help" is that it helps me feel less stiff. I stay within my boundaries though and have never been able to increase my stamina in 15 years.

A funny thing: about two years before what I thought was a sudden onset, I was lifting weights but had stopped getting any results. To address that I got a trainer at the gym and worked out according to the tips he provided, which seemed to be pretty good (a good trainer sees a lot of people and figures out what works). He commented that my body seemed to be locked up and just refusing to gain strength or size. At the same time I noticed that I needed more sleep than I had previously, but it was nothing dramatic. Yet.

I suspect my sudden onset was not, it had been building for 20 years. There were warning flags but I had no idea what they meant.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
@HowToEscape Was the 'sudden' onset viral? Were the warning flags all to do with exercise? Interesting. There are other members that thought their onset was sudden but realized later that it had been building up way before. That is the dangerous part- the not knowing until . . .
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
A funny thing: about two years before what I thought was a sudden onset, I was lifting weights but had stopped getting any results. To address that I got a trainer at the gym and worked out according to the tips he provided, which seemed to be pretty good (a good trainer sees a lot of people and figures out what works). He commented that my body seemed to be locked up and just refusing to gain strength or size. At the same time I noticed that I needed more sleep than I had previously, but it was nothing dramatic. Yet.

I suspect my sudden onset was not, it had been building for 20 years. There were warning flags but I had no idea what they meant.

Sounds familiar. The not getting gains from fitness. I always thought my M.E. started at 19 yo. Till the person treating me pointed out I was likely already getting sick at age 13. There were numerous red flags. Getting a lot quieter at school, my grades plummeting, at football at age 15 I had to stop a match because of trouble breathing, at age 17/18 I would dry-heave several times after football-practice. Who knows what could've been done if it had been picked up earlier and who knows what could've been done if I had known about pacing and the ill-effect of GET at age 19.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
A funny thing: about two years before what I thought was a sudden onset, I was lifting weights but had stopped getting any results. To address that I got a trainer at the gym and worked out according to the tips he provided, which seemed to be pretty good (a good trainer sees a lot of people and figures out what works). He commented that my body seemed to be locked up and just refusing to gain strength or size. At the same time I noticed that I needed more sleep than I had previously, but it was nothing dramatic. Yet.

I suspect my sudden onset was not, it had been building for 20 years. There were warning flags but I had no idea what they meant.

Similar to me. I consider myself to have had both sudden onset and gradual onset because although I got suddenly much worse to the point where I had to give up work entirely very quickly, I had been struggling for years and years. I often used my holiday entitlement at work just to rest, I had sleep problems that got worse over time and my stamina just went downhill even though I was exercising right to increase it.

I can't exercise now at all. I used to exercise all the time.
 

Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
Take Rituximab for comparison, a drug currently in phase 3 trials in ME/CFS – this drug, like others, have had to prove they are safe enough to justify the benefits they offer. The safety of the drug has been scrutinized, both under trial conditions and in post-marketing surveillance. This is because no drug is safe, no one would ever claim that a drug is completely safe. No one would expect it to be and no one would believe it if they told it was. Yet we have people claiming GET is safe and they are given a free pass, presumably because it’s a behavioral treatment aimed at patients who they believe are suffering from fear avoidance behaviors and de-conditioning.
If a large number of patients, all taking the same medicine, repeatedly reported harmful excacerbation of their condition, what would the reaction be if the default accusation by the medical establishment was of patients having false illness beliefs, instead of the possibility (at least!) that the medication might be causing harm?
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
@HowToEscape Was the 'sudden' onset viral? Were the warning flags all to do with exercise? Interesting. There are other members that thought their onset was sudden but realized later that it had been building up way before. That is the dangerous part- the not knowing until . . .

I will have to be short because I'm zonked right now but until I can write a full reply:
1. I had no viruses that I was aware of. it felt like I had a new type of flu, one without the nose, throat or stomach symptoms. The cheapie I went to did not see any virus.
2. None of the warning flags except the stopped response to weightlifting were due to exercise.
In previous years exercise had a profound beneficial effect, but it had to be of high intensity. I had mysterious intervals of feeling like I was walking through molasses, but chalked that up to depression.

For reasons I can't entirely explicate, I believe many of us had a long early phase with episodic illness, but without our system being fully broken. Those episodes nearly mimic other diseases and they are not on medicine's diagnostic map. Perhaps some combination of additional insults to the system and aging pushes it over the cliff.
This is one of the rare cases where folk wisdom is wise and medicine is blind; ask someone from a traditional culture and they'll say that if you feel exhausted and weary you need to stop whatever you're doing and rest. They won't say "go to a psychiatrist".

The world should have listened to Melvin Ramsey.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Sounds familiar. The not getting gains from fitness. I always thought my M.E. started at 19 yo. Till the person treating me pointed out I was likely already getting sick at age 13. There were numerous red flags. Getting a lot quieter at school, my grades plummeting, at football at age 15 I had to stop a match because of trouble breathing, at age 17/18 I would dry-heave several times after football-practice. Who knows what could've been done if it had been picked up earlier and who knows what could've been done if I had known about pacing and the ill-effect of GET at age 19.

At least you played football while you could! I wish I'd known how important team sports were in high school, although I could never throw or catch the damn thing (American football) so that couldn't of been my support. Too short for basketball, etc.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Similar to me. I consider myself to have had both sudden onset and gradual onset because although I got suddenly much worse to the point where I had to give up work entirely very quickly, I had been struggling for years and years. I often used my holiday entitlement at work just to rest, I had sleep problems that got worse over time and my stamina just went downhill even though I was exercising right to increase it.

I can't exercise now at all. I used to exercise all the time.
Before it all snapped did exercise make you feel stronger and better? Two years before crash I was doing triathlons. Short ones, not an Iron Man, unfortunately.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
If a large number of patients, all taking the same medicine, repeatedly reported harmful excacerbation of their condition, what would the reaction be if the default accusation by the medical establishment was of patients having false illness beliefs, instead of the possibility (at least!) that the medication might be causing harm?

Glad I live in the USA. The federal government did us no favors, but individual doctors were and sometimes still are free to call'm like they see'm.

They did silently cut federal disability for us around 2012, and that's a program paid for by tax deductions out of your payroll, it's not welfare. Funny thing, that cut happened right after the plan to Federalize much of healthcare ("Obamacare") took effect.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Before it all snapped did exercise make you feel stronger and better? Two years before crash I was doing triathlons. Short ones, not an Iron Man, unfortunately.

Sometimes but not at others. I would say yes, most of the time, but despite working harder than my peers I achieved less, and I could never understand why.