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Comments on Lombardi, et al in Science

ixchelkali

Senior Member
Messages
1,107
Location
Long Beach, CA
Nope, not an error

I haven't read all the responses in this thread so don't know if anyone else has commented on this.....but am I correct in noticing that Mikovits and Ruscetti let a double negative slip through the editing process in this sentence below? Pity, if so!

"We contend that the three recently published negative PCR studies (1315) do not qualify as being studies that fail to replicate our study,........."

Its not an error, just a bit unclear. The three negative PCR studies have been characterized as studies which failed to replicate the Lombardi, et al studys finding, meaning they ran the same tests and got different results. Mikovits is saying that they didnt fail to replicate their study, because they didnt try to replicate it. They dont qualify as replication studies because they didnt use the same techniques as the Lombardi, et al study.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
tomk said:
Gerwyn, what you said was:


That sounds like a statistical fact. But it seems you just made it up. You should be clearer what you are saying as you're not just talking to yourself but to other people.

Those studies were done quite a bit before the Canadian Clinical Criteria. For example, the Chicago prevalence study was published in 1999.

Leonard Jason re-assessed the data and found that of the 32 who satisfied the Fukuda criteria, 20 (62.5%) satisfied the Canadian Criteria and 12 did not.

Also 3 who had idiopathic chronic fatigue (but did not satisfy the Fukuda criteria) satisfied the Canadian Clinical criteria. That means that 20/23 (87%) of those who satisfied the Canadian criteria, satisfied the Fukuda definition. Ref: Jason LA, Torres-Harding SR, Jurgens A, Helgerson J. Comparing the Fukuda et al. Criteria and the Canadian Case Definition for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. J CFS 12(1):37-52, 2004. http://www.cfids-cab.org/cfs-inform/CFS.case.def/jason.etal04.pdf

if you work out the possible permutations of Fukuda you will see that the majority of oresentations do not contain PEM

jasons study had no statistical powering at all.When you look at the patient numbers 32 out of some 23.000 interviwed by phone by self report.20 said they qualified for Fukuda.Quoting naked percentage gigures are meaningless unless accompanied by P values and confidence intervals.The point is that none of those would qualify for a diagnosis under CCC guidelines.But if someone qualifies for a diagnosis under CCC guidelines they automatically under FUKUDA.

I hope that this is clear enough for you
Gerwyn, it is not clear to me.

The onus is on you to back up your statement:
Most FUKUDA presentations do not even include PEM which is not mandatory.
You haven't done a single thing to shown any evidence from research to back this up.

Research data is relevant because the symptoms may not be random patterns but clusters that go together.

However, if one wants to look at things simply theoretically: if the symptoms were distributed at random and each symptom was equally prevalent, and everyone had 4 of the 8 Fukuda symptoms but no more, on average 50% of those who satisfied Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

However, some people can have 5, 6, 7 or 8 of the 8 symptoms.

This is a uniform distribution. On average, patients would have 6 symptoms and on average 75% of the patients who satisfy the Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

I have already pointed out that Leonard Jason's team found 3 of the people who satisfied the Canadian definition didn't satisfy the Fukuda criteria so I am not sure why you re-iterated it as fact that if one satisfied the Canadian criteria one had to satisfy the Fukuda.
I gave you a link to the paper which looked at the issue - are you not curious with regard to what they found?
If you think the paper was wrong, you should probably contact Leonard Jason to tell him (I'm not convinced it's wrong myself).
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
can someone have a look at this please before i add references etc


Aside from these crucial methodological issues, other plausible alternative explanations for the findings are not explicitly discussed. Foremost among these is reverse causality: Patients with poor general health because of CFS may be more susceptible to viral and other infections.Well-conducted case-control studies provide important insights into disease pathogenesis. Lombardi et al. (1) demonstrated an apparent association between chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and the presence, infectivity of, and immune response to the human gammaretrovirus, xenotropic murine leukemia virus–related virus (XMRV).

I am surprised that Sudlow begins with such loose terminology.Lobardi et al reported a statistically significant correlation beween patients who fulfilled the Canadian Consensus criteria for diagnosing a person as suffering from ME,cfs defined as a neurological disorder by the world health authority and the presence of XMRV.

First, although the CFS cases studied fulfilled broadly accepted diagnostic criteria,

Again I am surprised by this comment. The CCC diagnostic criteria are the only clinical diagnostic guidelines in the world.All others are research guidelines.The FUKUDA guidelines are internationally agreed and recognised.The research guidelines(The Oxford criteria) used to diagnose people in the European studies are not. The Oxford criteria has fatigue as the only mandatory diagnostic criteria(sharpe et al 1991).This a strange way of diagnosing a neurological disorder.The CCC guidelines on the other hand have neuroimmunoendocrine symptoms as mandatory.

Sudlow also seems to be unaware of the fact that CFS is not an objective diagnosis.

It is a socially constructed label driven by the diagnostic criteria applied by the diagnoser.Different doctors apply different diagnostic criteria and thus produce objectively different patient cohorts which are unfortunately given the same label.
I am astonished that someone who purports to be an epidemiologist does not seem to realise this.

Second, to avoid selection bias, the CFS-free controls should have been drawn from the same background population as the cases and selected independent of the exposure (in this case, a viral infection) under study (2, 3). Put simply, the controls should ideally have been people who would have been cases in the study if they had CFS.

Sudlow is assuming that XMRV is not causative.Put simply if XMRV is causative then Sudlows design would leave us with no way of telling XMRV levels in patients with CFS compared to controls.They would all have equal levels of the virus .Selection bias is all to obvious in the Imperial college study because all the patients were supplied by one psychiatrist using diagnostic critera constructed by himself and his colleagues which are not internationally recognised.Sudlow is completely silent on this subject.

However, the control subjects are not described in (1) beyond a mention that they were healthy donors. Third, the lack of clinical data for cases and controls makes it impossible to assess the potential for confounding by numerous other characteristics that may independently influence XMRV status, including age, sex, social deprivation status, medical history (e.g., of prostate cancer), and area of residence.

None of these parameters are described in the European studies.She seems to be accepting,albeit tacitly, that there is a link between XMRV and prostate cancer while questioning the link between XMRV and ME/cfs which is in statistical terms about a hundred times stronger.There is no clinical data supplied in the European studies for any of the patients control groups or otherwise.

Fourth, Lombardi et al. do not explain whether identical and contemporaneous laboratory sample storage, handling, and analysis procedures were used for both cases and controls. Differences in these could be another potentially important source of confounding. Fifth, even if identical laboratory procedures for cases and controls were intended, researchers exploring an exciting new hypothesis of a viral cause for CFS in a laboratory established to explore biological causes of CFS will be understandably eager for positive results. This so-called "expectation bias" may lead to completely unconscious and nondeliberate differences in sample handling and data interpretation between cases and controls; it can be avoided only if researchers are blinded to the case-control status of the samples. However, this is not described in (1).

Expectation bias arises as a result of the self biasing nature of mental representations.This leads us to interpret things according to the nature of our beliefs world views and expectations.In neurocognitive terms it is called top down processing. This is one of the main reasons why the scientific method is constructed in such a way that to test a hypothesis is to actively try to disprove it. Lombardi et al far from displaying expectation bias challenged their hypothesis by attempting to find XMRV using 4 different methods.Had any one of their approaches failed then their hypothesis would have been invalidated.That is robust science.Contrast that to the approach used in the imperial; college study when the author of the study on the basis of one study claimed that”there is no XMRV in the UK.That in objective terms corresponds to the scientific definition of expectation bias.By not extending the scope of her analysis to the other studies in this area Sudlow appears to be displaying cognitive biases of her own.

Aside from these crucial methodological issues, other plausible alternative explanations for the findings are not explicitly discussed. Foremost among these is reverse causality: Patients with poor general health because of CFS may be more susceptible to viral and other infections.

The conclusion in the study by Lombardi et al was that there was a statistically significant correlation between the presence of XMRV and peopled diagnosed with ME,cfs according to the CCC criteria. There were a myriad of counfounding vatiables in the design of the European studies which made the results impossible to interpret and the conclusions reached unfalsifyable. Surely an epidemiologist would note that point.

Finally it is extremely common that people in very poor health because of a retroviral infection fall prey to secondary pathogens.This is what happens in patients suffering from Aids.So it is far more likely that a retroviral infection accounts for the poor health seen in patients with ME,cfs.I feel that a scientist should offer that as an alternative explanation especially as she is so keen on plausible alternative explanations been put forward
I haven't read it but, copying it into Word, it's 1012 words. That might include a few numbers, etc., but it's a lot more than the 400-word limit they have (that's the first time I've seen a word limit for e-letters).
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Gerwyn, it is not clear to me.

The onus is on you to back up your statement:

You haven't done a single thing to shown any evidence from research to back this up.

Research data is relevant because the symptoms may not be random patterns but clusters that go together.

If the symptoms were distributed at random and each symptom was equally prevalent, and everyone had 4 of the 8 Fukuda symptoms but no more, on average 50% of those who satisfied Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

However, some people can have 5, 6, 7 or 8 of the 8 symptoms.

This is a uniform distribution. On average, patients would have 6 symptoms and on average 75% of the patients who satisfy the Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

I have already pointed out that Leonard Jason's team found 3 of the people who satisfied the Canadian definition didn't satisfy the Fukuda criteria so I am not sure why you re-iterated it as fact that if one satisfied the Canadian criteria one had to satisfy the Fukuda.
I gave you a link to the paper which looked at the issue - are you not curious with regard to what they found?
If you think the paper was wrong, you should probably contact Leonard Jason to tell him (I'm not convinced it's wrong myself).

There is no need for research MOST feduka presentations do not involve PEM.you quoted meaningless percentage figures Jasons research is not given any statistical treatmentsthus is not scientific data. fact.i looked at the data 20 patients diagnosed retrospectively said that they complied with Fukuda that is 20 out of 20000 canvassed by phone.

It is impossible to satisfy the CCC and not satisfy FUKUDA because FUKUDA only needs a sore throat,headache joint pain and poor sleep at a minimum with fatigue.You could diagnose 10000 patients as having CFS by Fuduka criteria without any of them needing PEM at all.

I know what the retrospective trawl found that is why I know the conclusions could be produced by pure chance without a p value and confidence intervals it is not possible to tell.Scientific data is presented in terms of probability.Ergo his data is not scientific data-fact.You are welcome to think what you like.

A diagnosis under CCC automatically qualifies as CFS diagnosed by FUKUDA-fact-again you are welcome to think what you like.

Research data without statistical treatment is in fact completely irrelevant.

Quoting meaningless percentage figures is not research at all.you are assuming a Gaussian distribution without any evidence that it is.Based on this assumption you attempt to quote concrete figures.

Neither CFS or Feduka criteria exist in mind independent terms.Statistics are only designed to look at mind independent entities.

What you are effectively trying to do is to apply a statistical treatment to socially constructed labels.

This is what psychologists and psychiatrists often do without being aware of what they are doing
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
tomk said:
Gerwyn, it is not clear to me.

The onus is on you to back up your statement:

You haven't done a single thing to shown any evidence from research to back this up.

Research data is relevant because the symptoms may not be random patterns but clusters that go together.

If the symptoms were distributed at random and each symptom was equally prevalent, and everyone had 4 of the 8 Fukuda symptoms but no more, on average 50% of those who satisfied Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

However, some people can have 5, 6, 7 or 8 of the 8 symptoms.

This is a uniform distribution. On average, patients would have 6 symptoms and on average 75% of the patients who satisfy the Fukuda criteria would have PEM.

I have already pointed out that Leonard Jason's team found 3 of the people who satisfied the Canadian definition didn't satisfy the Fukuda criteria so I am not sure why you re-iterated it as fact that if one satisfied the Canadian criteria one had to satisfy the Fukuda.
I gave you a link to the paper which looked at the issue - are you not curious with regard to what they found?
If you think the paper was wrong, you should probably contact Leonard Jason to tell him (I'm not convinced it's wrong myself).

There is no need for research MOST feduka presentations do not involve PEM.you quoted meaningless percentage figures Jasons research is not given any statistical treatmentsthus is not scientific data. fact.i looked at the data 20 patients diagnosed retrospectively said that they complied with Fukuda that is 20 out of 20000 canvassed by phone.It is impossible to satisfy the CCC and not satisfy FUKUDA because FUKUDA only needs a sore throat,headache joint pain and poor sleep at a minimum with fatigue.You could diagnose 10000 patients as having CFS by Fuduka criteria without any of them needing PEM at all. I know what the retrospective trawl found that is why I know the conclusions could be produced by pure chance without a p value and confidence intervals it is not possible to tell.Scientific data is presented in terms of probability.Ergo his data is not scientific data-fact.You are welcome to think what you like.A diagnosis under CCC automatically qualifies as CFS diagnosed by FUKUDA-fact-again you are welcome to think what you like.Research data without statistical treatment is in fact completely irrelevant.Quoting meaningless percentage figures is not research at all
That's so convincing ... not.
Who do you think you are convincing? If you think probability/statistics explains what you say, give more details. What you say wouldn't get accepted anywhere - you're not saying anything specific to back up your contention that
Most FUKUDA presentations do not even include PEM which is not mandatory.

Re-reading it, you say that someone could satisfy the Fukuda criteria without satisfying the PEM criteria. No one is denying this. It's a question of how many. As I say, I haven't seen you give any evidence for this claim. Other people reading this might be taken in and think it's fact.

In the Chicago study, they found:
1. Only 65.2% of the participants who were diagnosed with the Canadian case definition
endorsed the item postexertional malaise, which needed to occur for 24 hours after
exercise. In examining these patients, the examining physician and other data within
their records clearly indicated that they had postexertional malaise. In addition, in the
Canadian criteria, it is indicated that the fatigue comes in many “flavours.” This Canadian
case definition makes that point that lack of stamina and fatigue need to be considered
when assessing this dimension.
This might be one of the reasons why 3 people who satisfied the Canadian case definition, didn't satisfy the Fukuda criteria.

As I say, the onus is on you to back up what you claimed. I accept that the two studies I quoted don't prove anything. But they're better evidence than what you have given which seems to be nothing.

you are assuming a Gaussian distribution without any evidence that it is
A uniform distribution isn't a Gaussian distribution.

I don't know if you use big terms and make bland general statements, that you can brush aside any questions.
The onus remains on you to back up your contention and I haven't seen any evidence you have done it. Instead, you prefer to throw sh*t at anyone who questions you. It's a simple question: what evidence or reason do you have for saying that:
Most FUKUDA presentations do not even include PEM which is not mandatory.
I will accept theoretical reasons if that is where you are coming from.
 
Messages
85
Post traumatic stress is a neurobiological disorder which Dr wesselly classifies as psychiatric.He is not an epidemiologist.An epidemiologist concentrates on the origin and propagation of medical diseases.Dr Wesselly has published no papers on that subject.Somatisation chemical and biological terrorism have nothing to do with epidemiology.Dr Wesselly has simply changed the meaning of the word as he so often does and given himslf that title.

In the study of communicable and non-communicable diseases, the work of epidemiologists ranges from outbreak investigation to study design, data collection and analysis including the development of statistical models to test hypotheses and the documentation of results for submission to peer-reviewed journals. Epidemiologists also study the interaction of diseases in a population, a condition known as a syndemic. Epidemiologists rely on a number of other scientific disciplines such as biology (to better understand disease processes), biostatistic

I am quite conversant in what an epidemiologist does. Perhaps you should alert Harvard. Maybe they are not.
 
Messages
85
Here is part of Wessely's CV:

Professor Simon Wessely MA, BM BCh, MSc, MD, FRCP, FRCPsych, F Med Sci. Vice Dean, Academic Psychiatry, Teaching and Training: Institute of Psychiatry Head, Department of Psychological Medicine, Institute of Psychiatry Director, King’s Centre for Military Health Research, Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London

Simon Wessely is Professor of Psychological Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London, and Honorary Consultant Psychiatrist at King’s and Maudsley Hospitals... He then attended clinical school at Oxford, followed by two years on a medical rotation in Newcastle being a real doctor and getting medical membership. However, he always intended to study psychiatry, and started training at the Maudsley in 1984, and has not really left Camberwell since, other than a year at the National Hospital for Neurology, and a year studying epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene.
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Here is part of Wessely's CV:

Professor Simon Wessely MA, BM BCh, MSc, MD, FRCP, FRCPsych, F Med Sci. Vice Dean, Academic Psychiatry, Teaching and Training: Institute of Psychiatry Head, Department of Psychological Medicine, Institute of Psychiatry Director, King’s Centre for Military Health Research, Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London

Simon Wessely is Professor of Psychological Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London, and Honorary Consultant Psychiatrist at King’s and Maudsley Hospitals... He then attended clinical school at Oxford, followed by two years on a medical rotation in Newcastle being a real doctor and getting medical membership. However, he always intended to study psychiatry, and started training at the Maudsley in 1984, and has not really left Camberwell since, other than a year at the National Hospital for Neurology, and a year studying epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene.

You cant become an epidemiologist in a year what qualification did he getand what papers has he published?
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Here is part of Wessely's CV:

Professor Simon Wessely MA, BM BCh, MSc, MD, FRCP, FRCPsych, F Med Sci. Vice Dean, Academic Psychiatry, Teaching and Training: Institute of Psychiatry Head, Department of Psychological Medicine, Institute of Psychiatry Director, King’s Centre for Military Health Research, Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London

Simon Wessely is Professor of Psychological Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London, and Honorary Consultant Psychiatrist at King’s and Maudsley Hospitals... He then attended clinical school at Oxford, followed by two years on a medical rotation in Newcastle being a real doctor and getting medical membership. However, he always intended to study psychiatry, and started training at the Maudsley in 1984, and has not really left Camberwell since, other than a year at the National Hospital for Neurology, and a year studying epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene.

Everyone has to do a medical rotation
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
I am quite conversant in what an epidemiologist does. Perhaps you should alert Harvard. Maybe they are not.

In that case you know that simon Wesselly is not one He gave a talk at Harvard giving them his self conferred title.Does that make him an epidemiologist?
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
FUKUDA versus CCC

The parts colored red represent the requirements for a diagnosis of CFS by FUKUDA criteria

1. Fatigue: The patient must have a significant degree of new onset, unexplained, persistent, or
recurrent physical and mental fatigue that substantially reduces activity level.
__ 2. PostExertional
Malaise and/or Fatigue: There is an inappropriate loss of physical and
mental stamina, rapid muscular and cognitive fatigability, post exertional malaise and/or fatigue
and/or pain and a tendency for other associated symptoms within the patients cluster of
symptoms to worsen. There is a pathologically slow recovery period usually
24 hours or longer.
__ 3. Sleep Dysfunction:* There is unrefreshed sleep or sleep quantity or rhythm disturbances such
as reversed or chaotic diurnal sleep rhythms.
__ 4. Pain:* There is a significant degree of myalgia. Pain can be experienced in the muscles, and/or
joints,
and is often widespread and migratory in nature. Often there are significant headaches of
new type, pattern or severity.

__ 5. Neurological/Cognitive Manifestations: Two or more of the following difficulties
should be present: confusion, impairment of concentration and shortterm
memory consolidation,
disorientation, difficulty with information processing, categorizing and word retrieval, and
perceptual and sensory disturbances e.g. spatial instability and disorientation and inability to
focus vision. Ataxia, muscle weakness and fasciculations are common. There may be overload 1
phenomena: cognitive, sensory e.g. photophobia and hypersensitivity to noise and/
or emotional
overload, which may lead to crash 2 periods and/or anxiety.
__ 6. At Least One Symptom from Two of the Following Categories:
__ a. Autonomic Manifestations: orthostatic intolerance neurally
mediated hypotension
(NMH), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), delayed postural hypotension;
lightheadedness;
extreme pallor; nausea and irritable bowel syndrome; urinary frequency
and bladder dysfunction; palpitations with or without cardiac arrhythmias; exertional
dyspnea.
__ b. Neuroendocrine Manifestations: loss of thermostatic stability subnormal body
temperature and marked diurnal fluctuation, sweating episodes, recurrent feelings of
feverishness and cold extremities; intolerance of extremes of heat and cold; marked
weight change anorexia
or abnormal appetite; loss of adaptability and worsening of
symptoms with stress.
__ c. Immune Manifestations: tender lymph nodes, recurrent sore throat, recurrent flulike
symptoms, general malaise, new sensitivities to food, medications and/or chemicals.
__ 7. The illness persists for at least six months: It usually has a distinct onset, **although it
may be gradual. Preliminary diagnosis may be possible earlier. Three months is appropriate for
children.
To be included, the symptoms must have begun or have been significantly altered after the onset of this illness. It is
unlikely that a patient will suffer from all symptoms in criteria 5 & 6. The disturbances tend to form symptom clus
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Wesselly and co have no knowledge of virology or epidemiology.
Sorry, but you are partially incorrect. Wessely is not a virologist, but he is an epidemiologist which is a public health degree. Below is a bio from Harvard University when he was a speaker there.

Simon Wessely is a professor of epidemiological and liaison psychiatry at the Institute of Psychiatry, King's College London; a consultant psychiatrist at King's and Maudsley hospitals, and director of the King's Center for Military Health Research Unit at King's College London. His main research interests are in the grey areas between medicine and psychiatry, clinical epidemiology, and military health. He has published more than 400 papers on many subjects, including epidemiology, post-traumatic stress, medicine and law, the history of psychiatry, chronic pain, somatization, Gulf War illness, chronic fatigue syndrome, chemical and biological terrorism, and deliberate self-harm. He is currently running a study on the health of 20,000 UK military personnel who took part in the invasion of Iraq. Wessely is a consultant advisor in psychiatry to the British Army.
Kelly, I agree with you - I think it is misleading to say that Wessely has no knowledge of epidemiology.

Although Gerwyn has tried to explain where he was coming from, which is useful.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
The parts colored red represent the requirements for a diagnosis of CFS by FUKUDA criteria

1. Fatigue: The patient must have a significant degree of new onset, unexplained, persistent, or
recurrent physical and mental fatigue that substantially reduces activity level.
__ 2. PostExertional
Malaise and/or Fatigue: There is an inappropriate loss of physical and
mental stamina, rapid muscular and cognitive fatigability, post exertional malaise and/or fatigue
and/or pain and a tendency for other associated symptoms within the patient’s cluster of
symptoms to worsen. There is a pathologically slow recovery period usually
24 hours or longer.
__ 3. Sleep Dysfunction:* There is unrefreshed sleep or sleep quantity or rhythm disturbances such
as reversed or chaotic diurnal sleep rhythms.
__ 4. Pain:* There is a significant degree of myalgia. Pain can be experienced in the muscles, and/or
joints,
and is often widespread and migratory in nature. Often there are significant headaches of
new type, pattern or severity.

__ 5. Neurological/Cognitive Manifestations: Two or more of the following difficulties
should be present: confusion, impairment of concentration and shortterm
memory consolidation,
disorientation, difficulty with information processing, categorizing and word retrieval, and
perceptual and sensory disturbances – e.g. spatial instability and disorientation and inability to
focus vision. Ataxia, muscle weakness and fasciculations are common. There may be overload 1
phenomena: cognitive, sensory – e.g. photophobia and hypersensitivity to noise and/
or emotional
overload, which may lead to “crash” 2 periods and/or anxiety.
__ 6. At Least One Symptom from Two of the Following Categories:
__ a. Autonomic Manifestations: orthostatic intolerance neurally
mediated hypotension
(NMH), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), delayed postural hypotension;
lightheadedness;
extreme pallor; nausea and irritable bowel syndrome; urinary frequency
and bladder dysfunction; palpitations with or without cardiac arrhythmias; exertional
dyspnea.
__ b. Neuroendocrine Manifestations: loss of thermostatic stability – subnormal body
temperature and marked diurnal fluctuation, sweating episodes, recurrent feelings of
feverishness and cold extremities; intolerance of extremes of heat and cold; marked
weight change anorexia
or abnormal appetite; loss of adaptability and worsening of
symptoms with stress.
__ c. Immune Manifestations: tender lymph nodes, recurrent sore throat, recurrent flulike
symptoms, general malaise, new sensitivities to food, medications and/or chemicals.
__ 7. The illness persists for at least six months: It usually has a distinct onset, **although it
may be gradual. Preliminary diagnosis may be possible earlier. Three months is appropriate for
children.
To be included, the symptoms must have begun or have been significantly altered after the onset of this illness. It is
unlikely that a patient will suffer from all symptoms in criteria 5 & 6. The disturbances tend to form symptom clus

Let's go through them and count up the minimum number out of the 8 Fukuda criteria.

From what I can see (I'm presuming Leonard Jason is correct so only doing this quickly):

After number 1: 0

After number 2: 0
because, as I pointed out:
1. Only 65.2% of the participants who were diagnosed with the Canadian case definition
endorsed the item postexertional malaise, which needed to occur for 24 hours after
exercise. In examining these patients, the examining physician and other data within
their records clearly indicated that they had postexertional malaise. In addition, in the
Canadian criteria, it is indicated that the fatigue comes in many “flavours.” This Canadian
case definition makes that point that lack of stamina and fatigue need to be considered
when assessing this dimension.

After number 3: 0 (criteria is unfreshing sleep)

After number 4: 1

After number 5: 1 (they don't have to have memory or concentration problems to satisfy the criteria)

After number 6: 1

So somebody can satisfy the Canadian criteria and not satisfy the Fukuda criteria.
And Leonard Jason found 3. It was only a small group 3/23 (13%).

My guess in the clinic, where patients are on average, more severely affected than in a random, population study, the percentage would be less. But that's not the same as saying everyone who satisfies the Canadian Case Definition has to, by definition, satisfy the Fukuda criteria.
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
That's so convincing ... not.
Who do you think you are convincing? If you think probability/statistics explains what you say, give more details. What you say wouldn't get accepted anywhere - you're not saying anything specific to back up your contention that


Re-reading it, you say that someone could satisfy the Fukuda criteria without satisfying the PEM criteria. No one is denying this. It's a question of how many. As I say, I haven't seen you give any evidence for this claim. Other people reading this might be taken in and think it's fact.

In the Chicago study, they found:

This might be one of the reasons why 3 people who satisfied the Canadian case definition, didn't satisfy the Fukuda criteria.

As I say, the onus is on you to back up what you claimed. I accept that the two studies I quoted don't prove anything. But they're better evidence than what you have given which seems to be nothing.


A uniform distribution isn't a Gaussian distribution.

I don't know if you use big terms and make bland general statements, that you can brush aside any questions.
The onus remains on you to back up your contention and I haven't seen any evidence you have done it. Instead, you prefer to throw sh*t at anyone who questions you. It's a simple question: what evidence or reason do you have for saying that:

I will accept theoretical reasons if that is where you are coming from.

This is what the canadian criteria ACTUALLY say about fatigue

1. Fatigue: The patient must have a significant degree of new onset, unexplained, persistent, or
recurrent physical and mental fatigue that substantially reduces activity level.

Jason is using his subjective interpretation of that just as well he does not do any diagnosing!

If they did not have PEM they would not qualify for CCC in the first place whatever they endorsed!

Biological paramters invariably display a normal or discontinuous distribution not a rectangular distribution so i,m afraid the sh*t is not coming from me.you are assuming a rectangular distribution without any evidence to back that up

Quoting percentages without giving statistical treatment of the data is meaningless Sh*t.

It is impossible to satisfy CCC and not satisfy at least a minimum FEDUKA requirement----FACT.

You can produce statistical data using parametric or non parametric tests what you cant do is guess.

You were guessing .

That is without even considering that the study was based on subjective self reporting with all the demand characteristics associated with that.

Meaningless data is not evidence of any kind.

It is not that the data does not prove anything it is totally meaningless in statistical terms

I think that you have produced a great many statements without evidence to back them up
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Biological paramters invariably display a normal or discontinuous distribution not a rectangular distribution so i,m afraid the sh*t is not coming from me.you are assuming a rectangular distribution without any evidence to back that up
I gave that as one example. I didn't say that was actually what was happening. My point was that if that was the distribution, that's what would happen.

Feel free to explain to me how assuming the distribution of the symptoms of those who satisfy the Fukuda definition (i.e. has at least 4 out of the 8 symptoms) is normally distributed, proves your point.

You were the person who made the claim that:
Most FUKUDA presentations do not even include PEM which is not mandatory.
and you haven't backed it up. You've written plenty in the meantime.

You can produce statistical data using parametric or non parametric tests what you cant do is guess.

You were guessing .
You're the person who is guessing.
You are saying:
Most FUKUDA presentations do not even include PEM which is not mandatory.
purely based on a guess from what I can see. You certainly haven't said anything to justify it that I have seen.
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
Mummy! Daddy!! Why are you fighting? Does it mean you don't love each other??

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G

Gerwyn

Guest
I gave that as one example. I didn't say that was actually what was happening. My point was that if that was the distribution, that's what would happen.

Feel free to explain to me how assuming the distribution of the symptoms of those who satisfy the Fukuda definition (i.e. has at least 4 out of the 8 symptoms) is normally distributed, proves your point.

You were the person who made the claim that:

and you haven't backed it up. You've written plenty in the meantime.


You're the person who is guessing.
You are saying:

purely based on a guess from what I can see. You certainly haven't said anything to justify it that I have seen.

You clearly stated your figures based on your assumption of a rectangular distribution as fact.That distribution has never been seen in biological systems.You accused me of talking Sh*t when you had no evidence to back up your claim whatsover

You were therrefore guessing while purporting to provide objective data.you quoted figures based on no statistical data.That is Sh*t

I did not say the symptoms were normally distributed .You said that they were rectangually distributed

You have written reams and backed up nothing at al.The symptoms of poor concentration paiful joints poor sleep sore throats and tiredness in a population are far more common than PEM.Therefore the chance of a person presenting with those symptoms and recieving a diagnosis of CFS under Fukuda are far higher than someone presenting with PEM.This why fewer patients qualify for a diagnosis of ME under the CCC criteria than FUKUDA
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
Let's go through them and count up the minimum number out of the 8 Fukuda criteria.

From what I can see (I'm presuming Leonard Jason is correct so only doing this quickly):

After number 1: 0

After number 2: 0
because, as I pointed out:


After number 3: 0 (criteria is unfreshing sleep)

After number 4: 1

After number 5: 1 (they don't have to have memory or concentration problems to satisfy the criteria)

After number 6: 1

So somebody can satisfy the Canadian criteria and not satisfy the Fukuda criteria.
And Leonard Jason found 3. It was only a small group 3/23 (13%).

My guess in the clinic, where patients are on average, more severely affected than in a random, population study, the percentage would be less. But that's not the same as saying everyone who satisfies the Canadian Case Definition has to, by definition, satisfy the Fukuda criteria.

1235 give you Fukuda.If not 2 then not ccc I cant see how you are having trouble with that. If they did not have 1 they qualify for neither CCC or FUKUDA(the definitions of fatigue are exactly the same in both despite what Jason says).If they do not have 2 they do not have ccc.Jason is not a clinician so I,m wondering why you are assuming he got a diagnosis correct? As I keep telling you self reporting is not a reliable way of making a diagnosis and quoting percentage figures are meaningless.

The parts coloured in red provide a diagnosis of FUKUDA CFS fact.Are you really trying to tell me that there is any difference between sleep dysfunction and unrefreshing sleep!Last time I checked the former caused the latter!
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
You clearly stated your figures based on your assumption of a rectangular distribution as fact.That distribution has never been seen in biological systems.You accused me of talking Sh*t when you had no evidence to back up your claim whatsover

You were therrefore guessing while purporting to provide objective data.you quoted figures based on no statistical data.That is Sh*t

I did not say the symptoms were normally distributed .You said that they were rectangually distributed.
Apologies if I was not clear.
I know perfectly well the chances are that it is not a uniform distribution but perhaps I was not clear.
I was just using that as an example - the simplest back of the envelope calculation. I was showing that you would need to assume it wasn't uniform to get what you claimed - trying to prod you to actually back up your claim.

The symptoms of poor concentration paiful joints poor sleep sore throats and tiredness in a population are far more common than PEM.Therefore the chance of a person presenting with those symptoms and recieving a diagnosis of CFS under Fukuda are far higher than someone presenting with PEM.
Finally, after I don't know how many opportunities, you actually give your reasoning for your claim.

However, you can't generalise from those figures. Those are for the general population. What the Fukuda definition is looking at is the group that have chronic debilitating fatigue of 6 months duration, etc. So only data from this group is relevant.

Then the symptoms require at least 4 symptoms out of the 8. The people who have one symptom may not have 3 others.

So for example, the two studies I quoted found that
(i) 75% of those who satisfied the Fukuda definition in the Chicago random population study.

(ii) In the Belgium study,
(A definition-based analysis of symptoms in a large cohort of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, P. De Becker, N. McGregor, and K. De Meirleir. Journal of Internal Medicine 2001;250:234-240.) A total of 2,073 consecutive patients with major complaints of prolonged fatigue were assessed. Among them 1,578 met the Fukuda criteria and of those, 951 met the Holmes criteria. The figures indicate the differences in prevalence and severity of symptoms between these patient groups.
97.3% of those who satisfied the Fukuda criteria had post-exertional malaise.

So anyway, we now know where your claim was from. I thought you might have studies you knew about.

I remain happy that I challenged you asking you for the evidence for the claim. It may be true but it is based on a number of assumptions. The existing data that I can think of does not back up the claim.