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Will fixing Hypometabolic state also fix cognition problems?

AdamS

Senior Member
Messages
339
I've just been looking at this article and it got me thinking...https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2016/07/25/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-brain-under-functioning/

Will the amazing work that Davis, Naviaux, Fluge & Mella etc are doing also help with the cognitive issues that debilitate many of us? E.g Information processing, executive functioning, ability to initiate tasks without effort.

This is one of the things that I find most debilitating, particularly because it makes it hard to socialise, work or concentrate on anything for very long.

All input welcome! :)
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
Theoretically yes. There is no evidence of permanent neurological damage in ME patients. If they can identify the pathophysiology of the disease and subsequent treatment methods, cognitive dysfunction would hopefully be reversed.
 

AdamS

Senior Member
Messages
339
Theoretically yes. There is no evidence of permanent neurological damage in ME patients. If they can identify the pathophysiology of the disease and subsequent treatment methods, cognitive dysfunction would hopefully be reversed.

Thanks for the reply. I think i'm of the same opinion too. I noticed a few weeks ago that I randomly started to get a bit more energy and amazingly my drive to do/initiate normal things suddenly re-emerged as if it had just been hidden or in hibernation...I managed to mow the lawn one day, valet my car the next, I even pictured myself back at work for a brief moment...2 weeks later I crashed really bad after trying to do aerobic exercise at the gym...but still, it proved to me that the damage might be reversible at least to an extent!
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
@AdamS

Yes, absolutely. As you alluded to, the likely ability for the disease process to reverse extends beyond the neurological components and potentially applies to the disease as a whole. There is yet to be found any structural damage to ME patients, and current hypotheses point to a dysfunctional metabolic or immunological mechanism that needs to be reset. As such, I think there is absolutely potential that most if not all of us to make full recoveries.
 

AdamS

Senior Member
Messages
339
@AdamS

Yes, absolutely. As you alluded to, the likely ability for the disease process to reverse extends beyond the neurological components and potentially applies to the disease as a whole. There is yet to be found any structural damage to ME patients, and current hypotheses point to a dysfunctional metabolic or immunological mechanism that needs to be reset. As such, I think there is absolutely potential that most if not all of us to make full recoveries.

That's the sort of stuff I like to hear! Fingers crossed.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
There is no evidence of permanent neurological damage in ME patients.
You mean aside from the loss of white and grey matter, and some brain remodeling? What we do have is some anecdotal evidence of full cognitive function after any kind of remission, even temporary. Of course once the symptoms return so does the cognitive dysfunction. We also know that some patients with some treatments have temporary improvements in cognitive function. What treatments? I think its all over the place, its about which treatments match the patient, there is nothing reliable.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The brain is an energy hog. It uses something like 20% of the body's energy. When there is more energy, the brain will function better. At least that is my hope.
Its more than just energy. The metabolomics findings go to key molecular pathways, and not just energy pathways. Neurological function is complex, if many of the metabolites needed are extremely low then its no surprise that neurological function is impaired. We need to fix both the energy state and the metabolite state. Of course fixing one might fix the other, but this is only speculation at this point.
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
@alex3619

I was under the impression that white and grey matter can fluctuate quite considerably, and if you lose it you can rebuild it?

I am talking here about permanent damage.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
We do not know if the damage to the white and grey matter is reversible. In any case it takes a lot of time. There is also the brain remodeling, which in theory is fully reversible.

We simply do not know what is permanent or not, or what takes years to recover from or not. Its all speculation.

Grey matter loss does not appear to be fully recoverable. White matter takes a long time to recover. I suspect it sometimes does not result in full recovery of the white matter, no matter how much rehab you do.

What we do know is that there is some anecdotal evidence that brain lesions are not permanent in ME. The lesions appear, disappear, reappear, in evidence going back to the Incline Village patient MRIs.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
In another thread, people have mentioned having transient remissions. I've had those (lasting hours) when I felt completely healthy again, clear-minded and energetic. To me that means that this is a reversible disorder rather than a degenerative one. I believe that there can be a simple treatment that will restore most if not all function. It's just a matter of finding the correct molecule....okay, and delivering it to the proper locations.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
2,997
Pyruvate dehydrogenase inactivity would prevent production of acetyl coenzyme A. Acetyl coenzyme A is required to produce acetylcholine. Lack of acetylcholine can cause a plethora of symptoms from difficulties in concentration, sleep problems and a whole host of other neurological symptoms. Hence if the pyruvate dehydrogenase blocking theory is correct then restoration of normal energy production will reverse he acetylcholine deficit. Now if acetylcholine being low is the culprit will extended time with it lowered have caused any damage, nobody knows. BTW acetylcarnitine may be able to increase acetylcholine levels in the brain and personally it makes am measurable difference.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Pyruvate dehydrogenase inactivity would prevent production of acetyl coenzyme A. Acetyl coenzyme A is required to produce acetylcholine. Lack of acetylcholine can cause a plethora of symptoms from difficulties in concentration, sleep problems and a whole host of other neurological symptoms.

how do you stimulate production of acetyl coenzyme A?
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
2,997
how do you stimulate production of acetyl coenzyme A?
Thats the million dollar question, however stimulating may not do much good if something is turning off its synthesis, it may be like adding gasoline to a car with a dead starter, it won't make it run.
I'm not the expert in this area though so perhaps someone who is can give a better answer
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
@Alvin2

totally sensible.... I vaguely remember reading that astaxanthin may increase (directly? indirectly?) acetyl coenzyme A but I just did a quick look and couldn't find anything.... Astaxanthin helps me sometimes w inflammation & cognition
 
Messages
34
Location
Germany
What we do know is that there is some anecdotal evidence that brain lesions are not permanent in ME. The lesions appear, disappear, reappear, in evidence going back to the Incline Village patient MRIs.

I had an MRI in July, ca. 7 months after ME onset. They found a 2mm hyposensivity but said that its pretty common. Would you say that such things are responsible for the various cognitive problems (I cant concetrate or have social contact/sensations a longer time otherwise I got a terrible "burning" feeling in my head an neck plus I dont get fully in my brain what I see, its really weird.. Its like you see everthing with your eyes but you cant really capture the whole picture), I dont have much sleep (only 4 hours with melatonine) in the night. I daytime I cant sleep at all.

I got also some hormones tested, my LH and Testosterone is very low. Is this common in ME patients? Could that be related in some Hypophysis disfunction. If yes is this reversible? I dont want to take hormones the rest of my life.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Low testosterone is common. I am not sure about LH. Its not clear that hormone replacement helps. It might, it might not. Hyperintensities are not established as a cause of cognitive issues in ME. I think the cognitive issues and the hyperintensities are likely to have the same common cause, and that it is likely to be neuronal, immunological, or metabolic, and probably all three.

Without knowing why luteinising hormone is low it is not clear how it can be treated adequately. My best guess is that treatment to correct ME will most likely correct any hormone issues. We are still waiting for the science to come up with such treatments. Its work in progress, we are not there yet.

Dealing with ME is mostly a waiting game. I have been waiting nearly a lifetime now.
 
Messages
34
Location
Germany
@alex3619 Thanks alex...Could it be that the virusinfection (enterovirus) of the CNS also affects the hypophysis aka Pituitary through an inflammation or damage so the hormone production is stopped or lowered? I am pretty scared about that thought.