'Herxing' vs. 'detoxing'

[flitza]

Hey, can somebody give me a cogent description and explanation for the phenomena here and in other ME forums commonly referred to as 'herxing' and 'detoxing' and how to tell the difference between them.

I mean I know what the Herxheimer Reaction is and it's a very specific phenomenon which doesn't seem to occur often among us...

 

[IreneF]

Hey, can somebody give me a cogent description and explanation for the phenomena here and in other ME forums commonly referred to as 'herxing' and 'detoxing' and how to tell the difference between them.

I mean I know what the Herxheimer Reaction is and it's a very specific phenomenon which doesn't seem to occur often among us...

A detox is something you do, such as going on a special diet for a few days. Sometimes it's called a cleanse. Personally, I don't think there's much to detoxing, partly because I've never read anything specific about the toxins (as, what are they?) other than vague references to chemicals. Also because I've never seen any details about their metabolic breakdown. Here's what Wikipedia has to say: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)

The Herximer reaction ("herxing"), more properly the Jarisch-Herximer reaction, is an inflammatory response to the destruction of certain toxin-containing bacteria by antibiotics. These toxins (endotoxins) are inside the bacterial cells and released when they are killed. It's associated with syphilis and a few other infections, including Lyme disease. Again, here's Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch–Herxheimer_reaction

So they are different phenomena, unless your cleanse includes Penicillium mold.

 

[Kati]

Here is the Wiki definition of detoxification:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification

Detoxification or detoxication (detox for short)[1] is the physiological or medicinal removal of toxic substances from a living organism, including the human body, which is mainly carried out by the liver. Additionally, it can refer to the period of withdrawal during which an organism returns to homeostasis after long-term use of an addictive substance.[2][3] In medicine, detoxification can be achieved by decontamination of poison ingestion and the use of antidotes as well as techniques such as dialysis and (in a limited number of cases) chelation therapy.[4]

Many alternative medicine practitioners promote various types of detoxification such as detoxification diets. Scientists have described these as a "waste of time and money".[5][6] Sense About Science, a UK-based charitable trust, determined that most such dietary "detox" claims lack any supporting evidence.[7][8]

Detoxing is an alternative medicine concept. Our body is geared to take care of cleansing all by itself.

Edit to add: As for Herxing, people use that word for all kinds of reactions including non-antibiotics. Even with antibiotics uses, all reactions are not necessarily Herx reactions.

In my views it is best talking about the exact reaction rather than using a term that cannot describe everything and has very little meaning to the medical community.

 

[Never Give Up]

I agree with @Kati, and the "Herxing" idea is just a theory to explain a common experience with antibiotics- there is no proof that the byproduct of dying bacteria makes people sick on antibiotics. It could just be that the medications make people sick until they adjust to them. Getting sick from a medication is not necessarily a good sign. It could be a bad sign. It could be a sign that you need to stop taking a medicine

 

[Valentijn]

I agree with @Kati, and the "Herxing" idea is just a theory to explain a common experience with antibiotics- there is no proof that the byproduct of dying bacteria makes people sick on antibiotics.

Um, it's been documented extremely well in the case of syphilis treatments. Spirochetes release endotoxins when dying, which triggers a very specific immune reaction. The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction itself is not controversial - only the application of it to a wider variety of symptoms and triggers.

 

[Mij]

Edit to add: As for Herxing, people use that word for all kinds of reactions including non-antibiotics. Even with antibiotics uses, all reactions are not necessarily Herx reactions.

Right. For some cases it's an immune response, nothing is 'dying off'.

 

[Steve4Andrea]

My guess is that for a lot of people here they are experiencing some form of IRIS response to anti viral treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_reconstitution_inflammatory_syndrome

 

[flitza]

A detox is something you do, such as going on a special diet for a few days. Sometimes it's called a cleanse. Personally, I don't think there's much to detoxing, partly because I've never read anything specific about the toxins (as, what are they?) other than vague references to chemicals. Also because I've never seen any details about their metabolic breakdown. Here's what Wikipedia has to say: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)

The Herximer reaction ("herxing"), more properly the Jarisch-Herximer reaction, is an inflammatory response to the destruction of certain toxin-containing bacteria by antibiotics. These toxins (endotoxins) are inside the bacterial cells and released when they are killed. It's associated with syphilis and a few other infections, including Lyme disease. Again, here's Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch–Herxheimer_reaction

So they are different phenomena, unless your cleanse includes Penicillium mold.

Thanks, IreneF. Yes, as I mentioned I'm aware of what a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is. I'm not doing a cleanse. I was just curious about somethings I've read in various threads where people have claimed to be 'herxing or herxing all over the place' or 'detoxing', where it appeared they were referring to a symptom complex.

 

[flitza]

Here is the Wiki definition of detoxification:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification



Detoxing is an alternative medicine concept. Our body is geared to take care of cleansing all by itself.

Edit to add: As for Herxing, people use that word for all kinds of reactions including non-antibiotics. Even with antibiotics uses, all reactions are not necessarily Herx reactions.

In my views it is best talking about the exact reaction rather than using a term that cannot describe everything and has very little meaning to the medical community.

I agree with both points. None the less many use these expressions and I wanted to get a feeling for what they are describing with these terms.

 

[flitza]

My guess is that for a lot of people here they are experiencing some form of IRIS response to anti viral treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_reconstitution_inflammatory_syndrome

Very interesting reference Steve4Andrea! This defines things for specific HIV etc., related infections but may apply in a general way to some things we are prone to. Perhaps a more general immune suppression/reactivation response.

 

[Woolie]

I agree with @Kati, and the "Herxing" idea is just a theory to explain a common experience with antibiotics- there is no proof that the byproduct of dying bacteria makes people sick on antibiotics. It could just be that the medications make people sick until they adjust to them. Getting sick from a medication is not necessarily a good sign. It could be a bad sign. It could be a sign that you need to stop taking a medicine

Yea, I've been guilty of that, @Never Give Up. Having a bad reaction to some treatment I hoped would improve me, and trying to interpret it as somehow a "good" sign that the treatment is working.

This is probably just hope triumphing over reason. A bad reaction is probably just what it appears to be - a sign the treatment is not beneficial to you.

 

[Never Give Up]

Yea, I've been guilty of that, @Never Give Up. Having a bad reaction to some treatment I hoped would improve me, and trying to interpret it as somehow a "good" sign that the treatment is working.

This is probably just hope triumphing over reason. A bad reaction is probably just what it appears to be - a sign the treatment is not beneficial to you.

On the other hand, Dr. Chia's POV is that when people start taking antivirals it "makes the viruses mad and they start fighting back", this makes some, but not all, people feel a worsening of symptoms, but that this should pass in 2-3 weeks. It has worked that way for my son, the worsening for a few weeks followed by improvements. Previous antibiotic treatment made him very sick, it did not pass after months of treatment, and in fact, made him permanently worse.

 

[Kati]

Yea, I've been guilty of that, @Never Give Up. Having a bad reaction to some treatment I hoped would improve me, and trying to interpret it as somehow a "good" sign that the treatment is working.

This is probably just hope triumphing over reason. A bad reaction is probably just what it appears to be - a sign the treatment is not beneficial to you.

A bad reaction may well be side effects of the drug that is not related to outcome. Be careful with interpretation.
As an example, last year I had to take a course of antibiotics for an infection. i was prescribed an antibiotic that is known for giving side effects. Did I 'herx'? No. Did I need to stop the antibiotics? Not in this case. i simply needed to take the course of antibiotics and ride it out.

 

[IreneF]

Thanks, IreneF. Yes, as I mentioned I'm aware of what a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is. I'm not doing a cleanse. I was just curious about somethings I've read in various threads where people have claimed to be 'herxing or herxing all over the place' or 'detoxing', where it appeared they were referring to a symptom complex.

I included the 2nd paragraph mostly for other people.

I think a lot of the vocabulary is misused.