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A question for you lovely people please? About something I read on FB in the ME chat room

Ellie_Finesse

Senior Member
Messages
192
Location
UK
Someone wrote this on there:-

'Hi guys I'm looking for some retweets and sharing of this if possible. Our lovely taoiseach or prime minister was quoted as saying that the cdc says there is no chronic lyme disease and that people who say there is are on par with people who say they have chronic fatigue or with the people who say they got ill after the hpv vaccine. Can you help me to show him how many of us there are and that the cdc is not always right.'

This was my reply:-

'I'm a little confused by this, I can't find anything anywhere that says the CDC think that Chronic Lyme Disease doesn't exist. However, there is no definition for Chronic Lyme but there is for Lyme Disease. I can't seem to find anything that says the Prime Minister was quoted as saying it either. I'm not saying that he didn't, just that I couldn't find it.

My understanding is that Chronic Lyme is just a term that is used to describe persistent ongoing symptoms of the disease, like chronic migraines. I might be wrong!'

I am just curious if anyone has seen this anywhere on the internet? Because I am so nosey, as my son kindly informed me last night lol, whenever I read things I always like to search for it on internet to verify.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Don't think chronic Lyme. Think late stage Lyme refractory to treatments. I suspect both the IDSA and the CDC would have trouble denying that late stage Lyme refractory to treatments doesn't exist. The issue would be frequency.

Lyme bacteria have over the past two or three years been proven resistant (i.e.,persister cells) to conventional Lyme treatments in vitro.

If you accept the widely-acknowledged figure of 10-20% of Lyme patients do NOT stay well following conventional treatments; persister cells may help explain why. Beyond that, Lyme is known to screw up victims' immune systems, making it more difficult to resolve an infection that might otherwise resolve it with a dose or two of abx.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Well, there does seem to be some unclarity around this issue. There are a set of doctors who claim to be 'woke' to Lyme disease which no one else can detect, and who provide treatments such as long-term IV abx which no one else approves of. Patients tend to get worse after seeing these docs, which is written off as "they're getting better, but the hidden Lyme is dying off". That is controversial.

That tick-borne disease is hard to detect isn't controversial. Lyme isn't always detected easily, and there are several pathogens other than Lyme which are equally nasty and even harder to treat. There can also be long term consequences after Lyme itself is gone. But "Chronic Lyme", meaning an undetectable but persistent disease is most certainly controversial. I'm not qualified to evaluate it on its merits, but to my simple ears the "Lyme Literate Brave Woke Rebel Doc" circle sounds like a scam.

OTOH, Nature is not your friend and it has a big bag of tricks. A pathogen that confuses or hides from your system seems to be not impossible.
 
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duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
But "Chronic Lyme", meaning an undetectable but persistent disease
This is not what is meant by chronic Lyme disease. On a basic level, chronic Lyme disease is Lyme disease that persists for an extended period, e.g. beyond six months, usually despite treatment. That's what makes it chronic. Sometimes it can be detected via conventional tests that support a clinical diagnosis, sometimes it cannot. The concept that chronic Lyme is a label invented by ILADS doctors to attach to a patient that is never 2T positive is a myth. An equally absurd notion is that all - or even most - chronic Lyme patients are patients that never had Lyme.

Lots of myths and half-truths floating about.

The way to avoid some of the confusion is not to indulge the chronic Lyme label nonsense, and simply revert to fundamentals. Stick with late stage Lyme. I certainly wish the CDC would.

But the CDC is highly regarded, and it is unfortunate if not surprising if this Prime Minister embraced its insights.

It should come as little surprise to any in the ME/CFS community that government agencies can get a disease wrong.
 
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sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
I wonder if it's a reference to some replies he gave when minister of health a coupla years back. He doesn't say exactly what's been suggested on Facebook (no real surprise there) but he sticks to the usual 'expert' line:

Deputy Leo Varadkar: It is fair to say there is greater and growing awareness among clinicians and doctors about Lyme disease. One of the difficulties is that there is not full consensus. I cannot speak for the medical profession; I am only here as Minister for Health and not as somebody speaking for the medical profession. However, I would like to refer to the National Institutes of Health in America, one of the international bodies which is expert on infectious disease. It states that physicians sometimes ascribe patients who have non-specific symptoms, like fatigue, pain, joint and muscle aches after the treatment of Lyme disease as having post-treatment of Lyme disease syndrome, or post-Lyme disease syndrome. The term "chronic Lyme disease" has been used to describe people with different illnesses. While the symptoms are sometimes used to describe illnesses in patients with Lyme disease, on many occasions it has been used to describe symptoms in people who have no evidence of a current or past infection with borrelia burgdorferi, according to the Infectious Disease Clinics Journal of North America. In view of confusion on how the term "chronic Lyme disease" is employed, experts in this field do not support its use, according to The New England Journal of Medicine. ...

.... A positive response to prolonged antibiotic therapy may be due to the placebo effect, which is reported as high as 40% in some studies.

Part of a longer Q&A transcribed here: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015030300030
 

TrixieStix

Senior Member
Messages
539
This is not what is meant by chronic Lyme disease.

@Ellie_Finesse

I see the term "chronic Lyme disease" used in a couple different ways and not meaning the same thing.

One being to denote ongoing symptoms that persist even after the Lyme infection is successfully treated. There is talk of the possibility that in some people the Lyme infection triggers an autoimmune reaction which is the cause of the ongoing symptoms rather than an actual continuing active Lyme infection. This being why these people don't get better when given more antibiotics.

Then secondly there are people who use the term to mean an ongoing active Lyme infection.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
I believe this was the exchange in the Irish parliament last week:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-06-28a.63#g98

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to raise the issue of Lyme disease and to highlight an example of where we have really failed in Ireland - the case of Anthony Morris in County Kerry. The Rural Independent Group met Mr. Morris last week, as well as Dr. Joseph G. Jemsek, who is an infectious disease specialist in America and who has worked with Mr. Morris in trying to create awareness around this issue.

As the Taoiseach knows, Lyme disease is spread through the bite of a black-legged tick which is infected with the bacterium Borrelia burgdorferi. It is a horrible, debilitating disease which, if left undiagnosed and untreated, can snowball out of control. We are very much lacking in six specific areas in Ireland. The first is a lack of proper recognition. The second is a belief that people cannot get Lyme disease here. The third is the Irish blood test. The blood test available here is called the enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, ELISA. It tests the blood for antibodies created by the immune system to fight the bacteria which causes Lyme disease. The problem is that, in many cases, the disease affects the immune system in a way which does not cause antibodies to be made. If a person reacts negatively to the ELISA test it does not mean that he or she does not have Lyme disease. It means he or she has no antibodies to fight it. There are varying percentages of accuracy with the ELISA test, all of which are low. Ironically, those worst affected by Lyme disease will most likely have no antibodies to fight it, hence they become so unwell. These people will test negatively on the ELISA test.

The fourth area in which we are lacking is that the number of reported cases per year is vastly lower than the reality. This is because the person must first test positive on the ELISA test and then his or her doctor must report it. Therefore there is a huge gap between reported cases and the actual number. The fifth area in which we are lacking is that those with Lyme disease fall through the cracks. Many are not well enough to be students or to continue working. Lyme disease is not properly recognised, therefore they are not entitled to any help from the State or even a medical card. They fall through the cracks.

The sixth and final area is the most important. There is a lack of training and knowledge among medical professionals. I will give the Taoiseach some examples of this which relate to the case of Anthony Morris from Kerry. He has had chronic Lyme disease for the last ten years. He has been a shadow of his former self. He was once a very active man and a tough former Kerry football captain. He is now weak, in constant pain and has neurological symptoms. For the last ten years, his partner has been pulling him out of bed and helping him to walk. He is in constant pain and bone-tired with fatigue. Mr. Morris has not had a proper night's sleep in ten years. Being sick for so long is tough but what compounds the misery is years of mixed diagnoses, going from doctor to doctor and specialist to specialist, having test after test, being told he has ME, or that it is psychological or that he is perhaps depressed and that it is all in his head. He has been told to get more air, to get more exercise and to take antidepressants and has been told that will sort him out. One infectious disease specialist said that he could not be that sick and that he should shake himself off and get back to work.

For years Mr. Morris tried to convince the UK and Irish medical professions that he needed to be tested for Lyme disease and that the UK and Irish tests might not give accurate results. Mr. Morris paid to have his blood tested privately by a specialist laboratory in Germany. Guess what? That German laboratory proved that he had chronic Lyme disease.

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Leo Varadkar (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is quite right to say that people can get Lyme disease in Ireland. Indeed people can get tick bites in our national parks and contract Lyme disease as a result. There is now a Lyme disease awareness week. That started in 2013 and is led by the Health Protection Surveillance Centre, HPSC. That is designed to draw public and media attention to Lyme disease, how to prevent infection, how to recognise it and how to be treated. The most recent Lyme disease awareness week happened in May.

Chronic Lyme disease, as opposed to Lyme disease, is a controversial diagnosis. There is a lot of dispute among the medical profession in respect of it. Lyme disease is diagnosed by medical history and physical examination and the infection is confirmed by blood tests which look for antibodies produced in an infected person's body in response to an infection. The testing involves a two-stage process which uses ELISA as an initial screening step. Screening enzyme immunoassays, EIAs, can give false positive reactions in the presence of other viral infections, so the second stage involves an immunoblot test, the western blot, which greatly increases specificity. Using this two-stage approach we are given a greater degree of certainty about the diagnosis of Lyme disease.

All clinical laboratories in Ireland must undergo continuous quality assurance to ensure that the quality of the diagnostics they provide is maintained at the highest international level. Some laboratories in Germany, the United States and elsewhere use other types of tests. These tests are not currently recommended by international groups, such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC, in the United States, on the basis that they are not sufficiently specific for Lyme disease and can give rise to over-diagnosis and false diagnosis. As the Deputy knows, Lyme disease can be treated very successfully using common antibiotics.

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Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Taoiseach very much. If the Irish blood test is accurate and the Irish medical system stand behind it 100%, is it okay for people who have tested positive on the German test to give blood to the Irish Blood Transfusion Service? That is an interesting question for the Minister for Health to think about. In the United States, the CDC, from which we get our guidance and which focuses on disease prevention and control, environmental health, health promotion and health education, grossly underestimated the original figures of people affected by Lyme disease. They now diagnose a minimum of 300,000 people with Lyme disease year on year. It is now so bad that these figures are expected to reach 1 million this year. Lyme disease is almost twice as common as breast cancer and six times more common than HIV and AIDS. Are we going to go down the same road of not acknowledging the severity and gravity of Lyme disease and the problem here in Ireland? What if the CDC is wrong and the German test is accurate?

Why has the National Parks and Wildlife Service not erected signage at all entrances to the national parks? Surely it has a duty of care to protect the member of the public who use them. Nearly all of our park rangers in one particular area, which I will not name, have Lyme disease at present. Nationally, up to 50% have contracted the disease. That is a shocking figure.

Finally, it is only right and proper to thank all the politicians who met, at the gates of Leinster House, sufferers of Lyme disease who came here over recent months. We met teenagers, 16 and 17 year olds, and their parents. They are at home in bed, riddled with pain. They are not able to go to school or to college. It is very wrong and I call on the Minister for Health and the Government to acknowledge Lyme disease and the enormity of what the future holds if we do not create awareness.

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Leo Varadkar (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I assure the Deputy that the Government is advised by the Chief Medical Officer on issues such as this because none of us are medical experts. As even those of us who have degrees in medicine are not experts in all of these fields, we rely on the advice of the Chief Medical Officer when it comes to issues such as this. We absolutely acknowledge Lyme disease. That is why there was a Lyme disease awareness week only last month. It is important to say, however, that chronic Lyme disease is a controversial diagnosis. The test used by the laboratory in Germany is not widely recognised internationally and may give rise to some very sick people, who need a lot of help and medical intervention, receiving a false diagnosis of chronic Lyme disease. We have seen similar issues arise with people who are very sick but attribute the cause of their illness to the HPV vaccine, or with people who have autism who may attribute the cause of their real illness to a cause that has not been established such as, for example, the MMR vaccine. This is an area where we must be guided by the best scientific and medical advice.

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