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Could Copper play a role

Messages
75
I know it is largely viewed as a toxic heavy metal Copper, or Cu from here is a big player in our bodies as long as it is bound to cerroplasm, its carrier protein.
A lot of people are using large doses of MSM thinking it a miracle molecule but beware it is a weak chelator of metals and may redistribute them-- not good. MSM will pull Cu from your system and from my experience and subsequent research this is ultimately counter productive. Cu plays a roll in detox enzymes and if lacking will drive cholesterol levels upward. It also plays an important role in energy production which is why I'm posting here for all to read and hopefully research further. ATP is dependent on Magnesium and Cu to be produced and when ATP is low energy levels will be as well.
Cu supplementation is a two edge sword however as Zinc and Cu must be balanced- both are vital to vibrant health. In my research many who are seeking more energy look toward iron but in doing so may be doing further harm. If Cu or Zn is deficient adding Fe only worsens things- iron is toxic above needed amounts and if ferritin is over 50 you have plenty and raising it only produces more oxidative stress- increasing need for all the aforementioned minerals which have antioxidant properties.
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
There are researchers that are still looking to prove that copper is the cause of diseases.
Then there are researchers who are proving otherwise.

I'm siding with the research that shows copper's health and neuroprotective effects.

I am also with the research that supports zinc as protective.

Both copper and zinc help keep iron in check, which is critical, since iron can become neurotoxic because mammals are not equipped with a good system to dispose it.
 
Messages
366
I personally think copper binding and bioavailability are rather complex and depend on a few things.
Glutathione binds to copper, possibly making it more bioavailable and ceruloplasmin production depends on the adrenals. Many me/cfs patients have problems with glutathione levels and adrenal function. So I think it's rather likely that there is are problems with copper binding rather than a 'real' copper deficiency.
If you then take copper it might reduce glutathione by binding to it and that is bad for the antioxidative system.
I just read that vitamin b5 binds copper and magnesium helps glutathione production. So those are rather some of the substances I'd look at.
 
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Messages
75
There are researchers that are still looking to prove that copper is the cause of diseases.
Then there are researchers who are proving otherwise.

I'm siding with the research that shows copper's health and neuroprotective effects.

I am also with the research that supports zinc as protective.

Both copper and zinc help keep iron in check, which is critical, since iron can become neurotoxic because mammals are not equipped with a good system to dispose it.

I personally think copper binding and bioavailability are rather complex and depend on a few things.
Glutathione binds to copper, possibly making it more bioavailable and ceruloplasmin production depends on the adrenals. Many me/cfs patients have problems with glutathione levels and adrenal function. So I think it's rather likely that there is are problems with copper binding rather than a 'real' copper deficiency.


Yes Crux there are dozens of sites that will tell you how toxic Cu is, even Carl Pheiffer believed it was, but that was before the research showed all the enzyme systems that are Cu dependent.

Cyrtochrome oxidase and lysyl oxidase are two very good examples of the importance of Cu levels as energy production and membrane/tissue integrity are pretty big issues.

It is my belief that much chronic fatigue is due to toxicity and perhaps a lack of Cu dependent enzymes.

Pink I agree with you to a point--I do believe glutathione peroxidase grabs onto copper but I believe it views in much the same way it views Hg and sends it to the liver for disposal.

MSM is noted for increasing glutathione through it's amino acids Cysteine, Methionine and Taurine.

Recalling it's a tripeptide these three are big time metal chelators especially Methionine which goes on to make Metallothionine.

I'm not sure if it's proper to refer to other sites but Wendy Meyers(Live to 110.com) has a podcast dealing with the very issue you suggest copper dysregulation.

There is a podcast with a Morley Robbins who is as smart as a tree full of owls when it comes to Magnesium and Copper metabolism.

As always Trust---but verify before you jump into supplementation..
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
I've had labs for an Iron Panel, serum Copper , and ceruloplasmin, a copper protein, done twice so far.

I have iron overload , and taking copper glycinate brought my iron levels into normal range.

Ceruloplasmin was still low normal. I hope to bring it up since it's critical for iron metabolism.

When ceruloplasmin is low, iron tends to accumulate in organs, especially the brain.
 
Messages
75
I've had labs for an Iron Panel, serum Copper , and ceruloplasmin, a copper protein, done twice so far.

I have iron overload , and taking copper glycinate brought my iron levels into normal range.

Ceruloplasmin was still low normal. I hope to bring it up since it's critical for iron metabolism.

When ceruloplasmin is low, iron tends to accumulate in organs, especially the brain.

Wow that's a huge revelation to me! My ferritin levels are still high but my GP is at a loss to what's going on.

She advised me to take some CoQ10 and kind signed off.

My other markers were decent (tibc,transferrin, serum iron)

To top that my cardiologist didn't flinch and prescribed (predictably) a statin drug due to high
ldl. This is in spite of a ferritin over 800!!

I will have a copper study done-- hopefully the iron can be liberated from places it doesn't belong.

Thanks a bunch for that info, this is truly a benefit of this forum.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Ferritin is an "acute phase reactant". Something is causing your liver to be upset and for the cells to release ferritin.

When my ferritin hit 600, my doctor recommended that my onclogist send me for a CT scan to check for a cancer recurrence and ran a bunch of cancer marker labs. My oncologist was equally concerned...

When all those were normal, the conclusion was that a chronic c. pneumoniae infection is in my liver making it and. Working on that has reduced my serum ferritin to the mid 200s, still high for a female...

I also have abnormal iron study numbers and have for awhile. I am compound heterozygous for the 2 main HFE SNPs and have a mild case of hemachromatosis underlying everything.

As your iron study is normal, you should be looking for what else might be causing inflammation in your liver...or if you think its hemachromatosis, its an easy lab test to check for HFE SNPs (they're in 23andme also).
 
Messages
75
Ferritin is an "acute phase reactant". Something is causing your liver to be upset and for the cells to release ferritin.

When my ferritin hit 600, my doctor recommended that my onclogist send me for a CT scan to check for a cancer recurrence and ran a bunch of cancer marker labs. My oncologist was equally concerned...

When all those were normal, the conclusion was that a chronic c. pneumoniae infection is in my liver making it and. Working on that has reduced my serum ferritin to the mid 200s, still high for a female...

I also have abnormal iron study numbers and have for awhile. I am compound heterozygous for the 2 main HFE SNPs and have a mild case of hemachromatosis underlying everything.

As your iron study is normal, you should be looking for what else might be causing inflammation in your liver...or if you think its hemachromatosis, its an easy lab test to check for HFE SNPs (they're in 23andme also).

Again a huge push in the right direction! It seems like all puzzles are solved one piece at a time

. I had a serious bacterial infection in Feb. and my liver enzymes (ALT I think) were mildly elevated. Ferritin has fallen to 345 in this months test.

I am aware of phase reactive proteins and incidentally CRP is one as well. Mine was under 3 at last count and liver enzymes are back to normal.

Did you ferritin fall at a slow steady pace to there present level?

My goal is a ferritin level of 50 as I have had bypass and wouldn't want to repeat that adventure.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
My ferritin fell a bit at a time, going down, up, down to get to its current level. CRP, AST, ALT, and GGT are good to monitor.

I'm needing to pursue phlebotomy, carefully. My primary doctor is very concerned about it increasing my fatigue. He also says not to go below 60 or it will negatively impact my mitochondria. I think I'd be happy to get it under 100 for now, but am consulting with a hematologist to put everything in context.

Maybe you just need to be patient and keep doing nice things for your liver and things will settle down. If they don't, then its wise to look for a cause.;)
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Ferritin can be raised when the body withholds iron from infection.

Copper is antimicrobial, and is needed to regulate B cells, T cells, WBC, etc.

With low copper, there can be a lot of cardiovascular problems.

Here's a good overview :
https://www.dcnutrition.com/minerals/copper-cu/

Dr. Leslie Klevay is a great copper researcher, but his more recent work is behind paywalls :
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/2/489S.full

Another good overview :
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/copper
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Some infectious agents use iron, too, and can alter iron homeostasis in the body:

I've had I don't know how many lung infections since I was a kid.
It's hard for me to like iron right now, it's caused a lot of pain/ infections.
But iron is essential .


Here is another article re iron and C. pneumoniae infection :
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2017/3642301/

I see in this study that the cu/zn ratio increased. It looks like copper was being mobilized to fight the infection.
I've read that copper countertops inhibit C. pneumoniae, but not much else.

Copper does inhibit many other microbes, though. Some do use small amounts of it, but it can kill in larger amounts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464932/
 
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