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Zinc to Manganese ratio?

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Bluelude1

Messages
87
I've read repeatedly that the higher doses of zinc required to treat people with pyroluria necessitates supplemental manganese, but the dosing recommendations seem to be quite arbitrary.

The closest I've come to a more exact answer was a post on another forum citing a researcher named Woody McGinnis' recommendation of a 5:1 zinc to manganese ratio. So 30 mg zinc would require 6mg of manganese.

Does this sound credible?
 
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pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,397
Location
Austria
Higher manganese can cause neurodegenertive issues. Some therefore recommend not more than 2 mg/d. But as always, we all have differing nutritional status, metabolism and precondition. Therefore any general advise could turn out completely wrong with an individual. Also does McGinnis consider dietary manganese in this ratio?

Personally I try do test as much as possible. Zinc isn't too difficult to get tested along with copper by a GP. Manganese you would have to pay out of your own pocket. A cheep alternative is to get inexpensive hair tissue mineral analysis, which can tell you in one test the actual ratios of most minerals and toxic elements.

Better test then guess. An other cheap way is recording all your dietary intake a few weeks or months in software like cron-o-meter, to get a feel of the basic of your regular intake.
 
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Bluelude1

Messages
87
pamojja said:
Higher manganese can cause neurodegenertive issues. Some therefore recommend not more than 2 mg/d. But as always, we all have differing nutritional status, metabolism and precondition. Therefore any general advise could turn out completely wrong with an individual. Also does McGinnis consider dietary manganese in this ratio?

Personally I try do test as much as possible. Zinc isn't too difficult to get tested along with copper by a GP. Manganese you would have to pay out of your own pocket. A cheep alternative is to get inexpensive hair tissue mineral analysis, which can tell you in one test the actual ratios of most minerals and toxic elements.

Better test then guess. An other cheap way is recording all your dietary intake a few weeks or months in software like cron-o-meter, to get a feel of the basic of your regular intake.
Click to expand...

For the average person that is probably correct, but someone with pyroluria by nature has an abnormally high need for zinc (in addition to B6) which in turn increases their need for supplemental manganese.

BTW - I found the source for the quote ...

http://www.biobalance.org.au/_downloads/discerning-the-mauve-factor-part-ii-galley.pdf

it's mentioned at the bottom of the article, but its actually 5mg of manganese for every 30 mg of zinc. So the recommended zinc to manganese ratio is actually 6:1.
 
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pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,397
Location
Austria
Bluelude1 said:
For the average person that is probably correct, but someone with pyroluria by nature has an abnormally high need for zinc (in addition to B6) which in turn increases their need for supplemental manganese.
Click to expand...

Thats probably me. Got about 13 mg from diet and supplemented 44 mg per day of zinc for already 8 years. Serum levels went from 76 down to 61 and up to 75 again (73 - 127 µg/dl normal range) all these years. Manganese I've got about 10 mg from diet and 1,5 mg from supplements. So a zinc to manganese of 57mg to 11.5mg = 5:1 ratio.

As you see in this example, when I wouldn't consider dietary intake my ratio would become a whooping 29:1 ratio. So let's take a look at your article.

Suppression of manganese may result from aggressive zinc supplementation. Small dosages (approximately 5 mg manganese for each 30 mg of supplemental zinc) reportedly improve symptoms in some high-Mauve subjects. Serum or red-cell levels may be monitored during supplementation with manganese, which in excess is pro-oxidant
Click to expand...

Obviously they meant supplemental only (everyones guess why?) and really highlight my warning above, better test then guess, ie. Serum or red-cell levels may be monitored during supplementation with manganese, which in excess is pro-oxidant

Manganese at 5 mg can already be too much and toxic without RBC manganese testing! And suggesting a 5:1 supplemental ratio without this warning even dangerous.
 
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Bluelude1

Messages
87
pamojja said:
Never tested for pyroluria and have very few of its symptoms.
Click to expand...

That would explain our conflicting arguments as we are effectively comparing apples an oranges.

People with pyroluria by nature have abnormally high zinc & b6 needs. As Klinghardt notes they may need as much as 250-400mg of zinc daily just to compensate for the amount their body is loosing through the urine.

http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/hpu 2009.pdf

That's where the seemingly crazy high levels of manganese come into play as the abnormally high level of zinc needed in turn requires more manganese.

Where your 57mg of zinc to 11.5mg of manganese gives you a 5:1 intake ratio, a person requiring 250mg of zinc would require 50mg of manganese just to stay at your intake ratio. This doesn't factor in that especially in the early stages of treatment someone with pyroluria is inherently low in stomach acid (body requires b6 & zinc to produce) resulting in yet another layer of uptake inefficiency.

All things considered... 6:1 doesn't sound so crazy.
 
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