Period of time to 'Heal' the gut and 'Restore' bacterial balance?

[ChrisD]

Using a paleo/near Ketogenic diet with Bulletproof along with supplements and Probiotics, I feel that I have definitely made some progress in healing my gut and improving my health status. But it is a VERY lengthy process and I just wondered if anyone who had healed their gut (maybe they have had a leaky gut test at start and finish to verify success) could tell me the length of time it took them to do it?

I use Bravo Probiotic yogurt, and whilst it is very successful during use, it doesn't seem to be colonising the gut (I haven't tested this yet - just based on reactions/symptom reduction). At first I was not able to go a couple of days without it, without total relapse of symptoms. Now I can not have it for two weeks and sustain the same current level of health, so there is clearly improvement but not significant colonisation of good bacteria in the gut.

Any ideas?

 

[Learner1]

You might need prebiotics, friendly fiber, which likely isn't on your Bulletproof diet.

I am on a ketogenic diet eating lots of nonstarchy vegetables. I'd been on rifampin/azithromycin 4 months ago, and have been taking 100-200 billion CFU high quality probiotics for the past 6 months.

Thought things were improving finally, but my recent stool test showed no lactobscillus or bifidocateria, surprising given my diligent consumption.

My doc said they have nothing to stick to. I just started Thorne Fiber Mend to work on it. I've also read s lot about inulin. The test recommended upping my consumption of garlic, onions, chicory and burdock root.

I've been through this before, both for me and my kids. It takes longer than you think to get gut health back...12-18 months of steady effort on a whole food moderately low carb diet with probiotics and digestive enzymes.

 

[jepps]

I take high dosages of probiotics (200 - 300 bio. CFU) and of prebiotics (several prebiotics, each 1 tsp along with potato starch) since 2014, and gut test shows a disturbed microbiome. If the problems are in the brain, you can only support the peripherie, but inflammation resulting from the brain always triggers inflamed organs, resulting in a disturbed microbiome.

But nevertheless RS, probiotics and prebiotics work for the gut, and for a better functioning of nervs and brain.

 

[ChrisD]

I take high dosages of probiotics (200 - 300 bio. CFU) and of prebiotics (several prebiotics, each 1 tsp along with potato starch) since 2014, and gut test shows a disturbed microbiome. If the problems are in the brain, you can only support the peripherie, but inflammation resulting from the brain always triggers inflamed organs, resulting in a disturbed microbiome.

But nevertheless RS, probiotics and prebiotics work for the gut, and a better functioning of nervs and brain.

This is the Catch22 situation that we seem to be dealing with, that inflammation in the brain that can cause stress on the body, then causes some disturbance to the gut and inflammation from the Gut disturbs the brain. We need to somehow break the cycle. I need to have another Stool test Post-Bravo Yogurt to see if there have been any lasting changes, my last Ubiome showed the exact traits that the recent Columbia university gut study found i.e. Increased Alistipes, decreased Faecalbacterium etc.

P.s. as far as I have understood, Potato starch can be inflammatory to the gut, have never heard it to be used as prebiotic.

 

[ljimbo423]

Now I can not have it for two weeks and sustain the same current level of health, so there is clearly improvement but not significant colonization of good bacteria in the gut.

I have heard many very good functional medicine doctors talk about this over the years, in webinars etc. They say that probiotics don't colonize the gut, although they are very helpful in re-balancing it. My assumption is that the gut lining has to be cleared of the wrong bacteria, so that the right bacteria, already in the gut in low numbers, can multiply and colonize the gut.

I think taking prebitoics too soon, before the pathogenic bacteria are cleared, can make it more difficult to clear them. I have made great progress in treating my gut in the last few months. I have more energy, am more clear-headed and most of all, my sense of well-being has increased significantly! As far as a timeline goes, I think it's very individual.

Depending on the severity of the bacterial overgrowth and the types of interventions made to clear it and restore healthy bacteria. I am taking berberine and oil of oregano every day to clear the overgrowth. I started by taking a course of Rifaximin, which gave me a huge jump-start!

This is the Catch22 situation that we seem to be dealing with, that inflammation in the brain that can cause stress on the body, then causes some disturbance to the gut and inflammation from the Gut disturbs the brain. We need to somehow break the cycle.

I agree that there is ongoing brain inflammation. However, I think it's the lipopolysaccharies- (LPS) from the leaky gut that are causing it. The research is very clear that LPS cause brain inflammation.

It's sounds to me like you are on the right track!!

 

[Eastman]

P.s. as far as I have understood, Potato starch can be inflammatory to the gut, have never heard it to be used as prebiotic.

Potato starch contains resistant starch, often considered a prebiotic.

How Resistant Starch Will Help to Make You Healthier and Thinner​

The Starch that Makes You Lean and Healthy​

Raw Potato Starch as a Prebiotic​

But it apparently can cause inflammation in some.

Unmodified Potato Starch May Cause Inflammation​

 

[Timaca]

This is an interesting topic to me and something that I am working on also. Most probiotics don't work for me for one reason or another. What I've been experimenting with the last 80 days is Manuka Honey. That stuff seems to have magical properties, for skin issues, my GI tract and even for my CFS!

Since according to some recent research, Manuka Honey seems to be effective against C. difficile, I'm wondering if it isn't clearing out some of the undesirable bacteria in my gut. Whatever it's doing, it seems to be overall beneficial, so I continue to take it for now.

You can read my blog post on it here.

Wishing everyone a healthy GI tract!

 

[TigerLilea]

I use Bravo Probiotic yogurt, and whilst it is very successful during use, it doesn't seem to be colonising the gut (I haven't tested this yet - just based on reactions/symptom reduction). At first I was not able to go a couple of days without it, without total relapse of symptoms. Now I can not have it for two weeks and sustain the same current level of health, so there is clearly improvement but not significant colonisation of good bacteria in the gut.

Any ideas?

The bacteria in yogurt does not colonize in the gut. You have to eat it on a regular basis to get any benefit from it. Kefir on the other hand does help to colonize the gut.

 

[jepps]

This is the Catch22 situation that we seem to be dealing with, that inflammation in the brain that can cause stress on the body, then causes some disturbance to the gut and inflammation from the Gut disturbs the brain.

Yes, and suspected causes for the inflammation in the brain are viruses and toxins like pesticides and heavy metals, that suppress important enzyms like acetylcholinesterase, causing less circulation and therefore chronic inflammation in the body.

We need to somehow break the cycle. I need to have another Stool test Post-Bravo Yogurt to see if there have been any lasting changes, my last Ubiome showed the exact traits that the recent Columbia university gut study found i.e. Increased Alistipes, decreased Faecalbacterium etc.

Not only the brain regulates the gut, but also the microbes in the gut regulate nervs brain. The microbes in the gut communicate with other parts of the body. Bifidos and lactos are very important for methylation, and therefore for suppressing viruses. But as the immune system works very slow, detoxifying the body via the microbes is a long lasting process over years.

But with time the immunity works better, and steps of progress, that hold on, can happen.


For me supporting the gut with a high dosage and several prebiotics,

as well as a broad range of probiotics were the key to gradually function up to live a normal social life with exercising and working.

P.S. as far as I have understood, potato starch can be inflammatory to the gut, have never heard it to be used as prebiotic.

Potato starch is a strong immunomodulator, and thus can be inflammatoray. For me, after a few months of inflammation, as many report in the RS thread, the inflammation decreased significantly.

To increase the tolerance, It is best to begin with diet, next step are probiotics, then prebiotics, and then the potato starch. Everything new can trigger inflammation, so start very low and very slow.

 

[ChrisD]

@jepps Okay I will give potato starch a go with caution http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/high-dose-potato-starch-can-make-you_22.html '
High Dose Potato Starch Can Make You Fatter, Insulin Resistant, Feed Vipers in Your UPPER GUT If You Are MISSING Bifidobacteria longum and Akkermansia mucinophila, aka SAD Microbial Fingerprint'

I don't have Akkermansia so I would be wary but as you say, start slow. So far I have been using psyllium Husks and Inulin Powder to feed Bifido and Lacto....

 

[jepps]

@jepps Okay I will give potato starch a go with caution http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/high-dose-potato-starch-can-make-you_22.html '
High Dose Potato Starch Can Make You Fatter, Insulin Resistant, Feed Vipers in Your UPPER GUT If You Are MISSING Bifidobacteria longum and Akkermansia mucinophila, aka SAD Microbial Fingerprint'

I don't have Akkermansia so I would be wary but as you say, start slow. So far I have been using psyllium Husks and Inulin Powder to feed Bifido and Lacto....

According to amimalpharm you adapt the dosage of potato starch to the dosages of other fibres:

AVERAGE DAILY FIBER ESTIMATES
8-40 GRAMS RS
8-18 GRAMS NSP
2-8 GRAMS OLIGOSACCHARIDES

Get the range of 'fiber', RS and plant/meat glycans:

-Milk Oligosaccharides- the carbohydrates found in raw cow, sheep, goat and human breast milk, dairy products and fermented soft and hard cheeses.

-Resistant Starch (RS)- the most common storage carbohydrate of plants. Found in tubers, roots, green bananas, green plantains, legumes, peas, oats, nuts, carrots, maize, sedge nutlets, and grains.

-Inulin and Oigosaccharides (OS)- (inulin, fructo-oligosaccharides, galacto-oligosaccharides, xylo-oligosaccharides) the second most common storage carbohydrate of plants including chicory root and its greens (aka endive), onion, leek, yacon root, Jerusalem artichokes, dandelion leaves and roots, asparagus, ripe bananas/plantains, legumes, lentils, oats, whole rice, red/black/purple rice, maize, grains.

-Non-Starch Polysaccharides (NSP): (found in small and large amounts in nature)
Arabinogalactan- a storage carbohydrate of trees and many plants (carrots, radish, black gram beans, pear, maize, red wine, tomatoes, sorghum, coconut meat)
Arabinoxylan- found in whole grains, psyllium, steel cut oats

Glucomannan- found in the cell walls of certain plant roots and wood, also a component of bacterial and yeast membrane. Konjac roots contain 40% by dry weight and are a great source of glucomannan
β-Glucans- found in oats, barley, whole grains, shiitake, oyster, maitake, mushrooms, dates, yeast
Pectin - found in avocados, berries, citrus, fruits, vegetables
Gums and mucilages- found in seed extracts (guar, locust bean), tree exudates (gum acacia, algal polysaccharides (alginates, agar, carrageenan), psyllium

I do Ubiome tests since starting with prebiotics + RS. I didn´t have any akkermansia. After one years they showed up in the Ubiome tests, this holds up until now.

I also had zero bifidobacteria at the beginning. They are steadily increasing and stable, but yet to low.

 

[ChrisD]

@jepps Thanks for the info, my diet should hopefully cover all of these so maybe I don't need to add supplements. What I find interesting is that when I use Bravo, followed by a prebiotic 'chaser' (Psyllium and Inulin in water). I can feel a lot of activity in my gut, it is not uncomfortable at all, in fact it feels very nice - lots of gurgling and a pleasant feeling that I can't really describe.

Also people on other posts in this forum have suggested Bone broth for healing and Water Kefir for replacing probiotics, does anyone have experience with these? I react very badly to Glutamine so have been wary of Bone Broth, also I have a slight histamine reaction from milk kefir so not sure if the same would happen with water based?

 

[Timaca]

ChrisD~ I hear you with regard to histamine issues. I seem to have that too which is why most probiotics didn't work for me. I have a refrigerator full of unused probiotics which gets tossed as they expire....

I would suspect that the water based kefir would also be an issue if the milk kefir is. Check what strains are used...if the strains are similar and the milk based didn't work, then it is likely that the water based one won't work either.

I've been taking the Manuka Honey for 80 days....just a small amount. Seriously, I started with like 1/8 teaspoon. And I noticed a difference in my GI tract within hours. It was shocking......

 

[Seven7]

Does anybody have a list of probiotics and what feeds them or a guide type like
Probiotic ----- to address X ----- take with? or will kill? do not take with ?----- will increase / decrease (sample histamines).....
The more I read the more confused I am becoming.

 

[jepps]

Does anybody have a list of probiotics and what feeds them or a guide type like
Probiotic ----- to address X ----- take with? or will kill? do not take with ?----- will increase / decrease (sample histamines).....
The more I read the more confused I am becoming.

Yes, but in Excel, but in German. I have the description for Complete Probiotics, Megaflor, KyoDophilus9, Prescript Assist, Sacch. boulardii, Baby Dophilus and Kefiran. If you wish, I can e-mail it (it´s an Excel file), all together are 76 probiotic strains.

 

[Seven7]

Yes, but in Excel, but in German. I have the description for Complete Probiotics, Megaflor, KyoDophilus9, Prescript Assist, Sacch. boulardii, Baby Dophilus and Kefiran. If you wish, I can e-mail it (it´s an Excel file), all together are 76 probiotic strains.

Yes pls, Will send my email shortly via PM TX!!!

 

[ahmo]

I'd say it took me 5 years to "heal" my gut. From the outset of beginning GAPS diet (anxiety reduced 50% straightaway), to ongoing detox of metals and bacteria, coffee enemas, and Candida protocols. For nearly 2 years I was using frequent, sometimes daily coffee enemas. Once I'd cleared things, my bowel function became normal. Also probiotics and resistant starch to feed them.

 

[ChrisD]

@ahmo Thanks, I will get on to all of those. I have done a few liver flushes but have always been slightly afraid of the old enema.

Has anyone in this thread had clear evidence of Leaky gut (I.e. a test) before and after healing + also noticed big changes in Microbiome? I have had 3/4 tests with Ubiome and Doctors Data that have revealed quite large shifts over the course of a year where my body transitioned from Fibro/Mild CFS to Low Fibro/Moderate CFS and now my Ubiome results correlate exactly with recent gut studies that show proliferation of Dialister and Alistipes etc. Has anyone else found this? I am keen to have another Ubiome done since using Bravo yogurt and with my symptoms improving but don't quite have the money for this at the moment...

 

[ebethc]

It's taken me 3 years to make any progress, and I'd say the very long time w slow progress is because its so much trial and error... here's generally what I've learned:

1. stay open to trying things...
2. Don't get sucked into dogma (and Paleo can be super dogmatic, even though the principles of whole foods and clean eating is common sense)
3. Doing things at the right TIME is important, so staying open minded can mean going back and trying something again that didn't work the first time

I have had chronic gut infections for years, and I mean the type of infections where all I can do is go to bed... can't function much at all! Probiotics like soil based organisms (prescript assist) killed the bugs, they they didn't make me any stronger so I could avoid getting these bugs in the first place...

Here are specific things that worked for me plus some things that I learned:

1. I really have a problem w high histamine probiotics, which are almost all of them... Align, Culturelle, jarrow ideal bowel, prescript assist are all okay... a lot of advocates of probiotics will tell you that u need to take a broad spectrum probiotic without asking it you have histamine problems... the ones I mentioned are the best because they'll actually help CLEAR histamine, not throw fuel on the fire...

2. Eating a lot of fermented food and bone broth is often equal to consuming a ton of histamines... I make my own broth and don't cook for longer than 3hours; longer than this is too much for me personally... kimchi has l plantarum probiotic which helps DEGRADE histamine, so it's okay ( l plantarum is the strain that in jarrow ideal bowel)

3. Taking betaine hcl w pepsin has been a game changer ... see "low stomach acid" on dr myhill's site... it explains how low stomach acid has a domino effect on screwing up your gut flora ( in my case, making me more susceptible to infections) , and shutting down pancreatic enzymes...some have luck increasing stomach acid w other things like apple cider vinegar, bitters, etc Some take it for 3-4 months and their body starts producing it again so they can stop...


4. Taking proteolytic enzymes ( wobenzym & bromelain) has been amazing for pain (all over joint and muscle aches, sinus pain, and even brain fog -- my worst symptom!!) Wobenzym includes pancreatic enzymes... see how the puzzle of my screwed up gut is starting to fit together?? (See #3)

5. Zinc & glutamine- have been awesome for leaky gut... glutamine even helps w brain fog

6. Quercetin & rutin are awesome for allergies and histamine problems

7. Magnesium & malic acid are great for aches and pains, plus low level anxiety

8. SIBO herbs are effective when combined w a low carb diet for SIBO... google the Johns Hopkins study in SIBO to see results compared by protocol


A (conventional) doctor actually said to me, I wonder if low stomach is your root problem? As I was walking out the door!!. I didn't think too much of it at the time because how could such a simple thing cause me so much misery.. ha! Her grandfather died of celiac disease because in the old times no one could figure that a simple thing like gluten was the cause... I'm glad she thought to tell me about low stomach acid, but she didn't offer a next step, either..weird... so the moral or the story is "Be a detective - curious and open minded"

btw, I've read that a lot of ppl w AI disease have low stomach acid, so I have no idea if this is by any means the root cause of my illness, but it sure is a big "chip" if we're all chipping away at this CFS thing together

Best of luck

 

[ebethc]

@ahmo
Has anyone in this thread had clear evidence of Leaky gut (I.e. a test) before and after healing + also noticed big changes in Microbiome? I have had 3/4 tests with Ubiome and Doctors Data that have revealed quite large shifts over the course of a year where my body transitioned from Fibro/Mild CFS to Low Fibro/Moderate CFS and now my Ubiome results correlate exactly with recent gut studies that show proliferation of Dialister and Alistipes etc. Has anyone else found this? I am keen to have another Ubiome done since using Bravo yogurt and with my symptoms improving but don't quite have the money for this at the moment...

How much is ubiome? Which test ( if they have more than one)

Do you prefer ubiome over doctors data?