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AfME Board of Trustees statement on CBT, GET and PACE - 16th May 2017

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Emily Beardall.. After the letter had been published. It's a set-up. What's the point in quibbling about something that's been and gone that didn't work. I'd rather get on with my projects to educate generalist health professionals,

Yes but what is Emilys, and AFMEs as a whole, stance on Holgates response to Tuller. Does she and AfME find the response satisfactory? What position does she take on Crawleys appalling presentation to the BRS. Surely if AfME are claiming that the issues with PACE need to be addressed, as they claim they are doing so in their statement, then Crawley is also accusing AFME of harassment and being anti science?

And yet its claimed that its Tuller who is manipulating them to look bad?

Come on AfME take a stance on Holgates response otherwise you too stand accused of being anti science and being harassers by Crawley. Why oh why wont you stand up to her publicly?
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Action for M.E believes that:

  • it is vital that valid questions, raised about the science conducted as part of the PACE trial, be addressed as a matter of urgency, and that the experiences of the patient community are not ignored
  • a review of the NICE guideline must take full account of emerging biomedical research, the views and experiences of people with M.E., and clearly reflect nuances around findings and re-analysis related to the PACE trial
  • the field must move forward by bringing in new researchers, more funding for biomedical research, and more effective engagement with policy makers. The focus on the scientific debate around the PACE trial above all else is preventing this from happening.

1) As a matter of urgency? It's been six years since the first PACE paper came out, and the problems with the trial were clear even before that. Where have Action for ME been?
2) Reflect nuances? What a strong and clear message that sends. What nuances, exactly, do Action for ME think need to be reflected?
3) Action for ME's failure to understand and recognise the problems with the PACE trial are a key reason why this debate has taken up so many people's time for so many years. We need to focus on this so that we can move on from it. Action for ME's cowardly and evasive responses are preventing us from moving forward. They've still not even apologised for their role in PACE. What gall for them to complain about the focus on PACE.

They're a broken organisation who have caused terrible harm to the way patients are treated in the UK and I see no prospect of that changing.
 
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Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
Just replied to Mr Glen on facebook, just recording it here should it do a disappearing act.
Glen Buchanan Honestly, some of you really need to chill out and use your very clear anger/frustration about the situation people with M.E. face in a much more constructive way. Spending your time/energy moaning at someone else with the illness, criticising a charit...See more
Like

· Reply · 27 mins

Molly Morriss
Glen, there seems a little confusion. These comments are directly related to the above post by AFME and specifically to AFME's decision not to take action by signing the letter calling for the retraction of PACE. We are not discussing or judging AFME's...See more
Like

· Reply · 20 mins

Molly Morriss
It is a pretty strange thing that AFME have on several occasions talked of all working together and yet they themselves, when the opportunity arise to work together and the whole ME community is united around a common cause actively choose not to work ...See more
Like

· Reply · 17 mins

Glen Buchanan
Molly Morriss Perhaps, like me and others, they don't see one letter as the be all and end all. They are working in so many ways to help us, and have called for answers in this statement - all of which the vocal minority are choosing to ignore so they ...See more
Like

· Reply · 15 mins · Edited

Molly Morriss
IT is not a case of just MOVE ON from the PACE scandal. Too many have been harmed as a result of this and we all still face the outfall from PACE when ever we come in contact with medical professionals. It is still causing considerable harm to patients...See more
 

Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
@Molly98 could you press 'see more' and then copy over the full message. thanks

He sounds like Richard Horton and Simon Wessely - "vocal minority" - MY ARSE!

sorry @Yogi I am a bit unfamiliar with facebook and need a bit of a helping hand, hopefully, full messages below

Glen Buchanan -Honestly, some of you really need to chill out and use your very clear anger/frustration about the situation people with M.E. face in a much more constructive way. Spending your time/energy moaning at someone else with the illness, criticising a charity that works so hard for us, twisting my words and pointlessly debating semantics with me is not going to help the cause in any way. I am not going to debate any more with any of you. I hope you find a way to make better use of your time and energy.
Like
· Reply · 35 mins

Molly Morriss
Glen, there seems a little confusion. These comments are directly related to the above post by AFME and specifically to AFME's decision not to take action by signing the letter calling for the retraction of PACE. We are not discussing or judging AFME's work in other areas. there seems to also be a lot of projection going on. You use the term vocal minority. this is incorrect, those calling for PACE are by far the majority. You see pretty much every other charity and ME organisation signed that letter, representing 100,000's members and sufferers worldwide. Many were asked to do so by there members and supporters, just as AFME was. AFME was THE ONLY one not to sign despite many requests to do so from the ME community it says it represents. it would be interesting to know how many of its members contacted AFME asking them not to sign and that they did not agree with the letter asking for the retraction of PACE. There is something greatly amiss with AFME's stance on this that should be questioned by supporters and members. To sign that letter was a no brainer as an ME organisation. AFME could have made the decision to stand united with the rest of the ME community, in doing so they would have gained the respect, faith and goodwill of the ME community. They would have gained a lot of praise , thanks and support for taking that stance. What charity or organisation does not want that from its members and supporters it seeks to represent. It would not have cost them a penny or a few minutes of their time to sign. They stood to gain a whole lot from signing and strengthen their position in the ME community. They knew they stood to loose and would face a backlash if they did not. So why didn't they? The only feesable explaination is that they stood to gain more by not signing or were set to loose more by signing that must have been a pretty big something, or was it some one?
Like
· Reply · 29 mins

Molly Morriss
It is a pretty strange thing that AFME have on several occasions talked of all working together and yet they themselves, when the opportunity arise to work together and the whole ME community is united around a common cause actively choose not to work together and to isolate themselves. They are the only charity and ME organisation to do this- WORLDWIDE, who is it who is guilty of not working together on behalf of ME patients?
Like
· Reply · 26 mins

Glen Buchanan
Molly Morriss Perhaps, like me and others, they don't see one letter as the be all and end all. They are working in so many ways to help us, and have called for answers in this statement - all of which the vocal minority are choosing to ignore so they can focus on this letter that made no difference. What is the point of banging on and on about that one letter. If you are so outraged by one letter than don't like their Facebook page or be a member. And speculating that they are gaining from not signing this letter or that there is some kind of conspiracy with someone is daft and misleading.
Like
· Reply · 23 mins · Edited

Molly Morriss
IT is not a case of just MOVE ON from the PACE scandal. Too many have been harmed as a result of this and we all still face the outfall from PACE when ever we come in contact with medical professionals. It is still causing considerable harm to patients and seriously misleading and misinforming practitioners. The PACE authors have the opportunity to end this now and allow the community to move on by retracting the paper and I would also add by apologizing for the harm caused, then we will all move on. It is not OK to tell people the have suffered great harm from something such as this to just move on, this is a grave injustice, it is harmful, the science is deeply flawed, first this must be recognised, then put right, then we can all move on. The PACE authors can do that no one else , but AFME being closely involved with authors and supports could have considerable influence here. They have chosen not to use it.
Like
· Reply · 19 mins

yes the vocal minority thing, how many times have we heard that from the BPS lots, so much so that now even ME sufferers are using it. Funny when they are so obviously the minority. If we are the vocal minority perhaps they could be the manipulative minority, the deceptive minority, what ever we need a name using the word minority that will stick to them ( the BPS lot) as they have done making it clear to al that it is them in the minority because that is the truth. It has worked for them for so long, so it clearly works.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Can we update this saga on AFME's MEPedia page for the record?

Done.

The fact is that there are no treatments that offer reliable and significant improvements for people with M.E.

"Therefore, we will continue to support ones that provoke harm." They literally say that patients report it's harmed them.

Some find GET and/or CBT helpful; others find they make no difference, or make their symptoms worse.

I don't know anyone who's found GET useful.

Also looks like they are hiding any negative comments on their Facebook post on this...

I see a few. There are a few people defending AFME, so be aware the other opinion exists and is held by patients. I think that many see AFME as doing "the best they can" in the situation -- people who are less inclined to 'rock the boat' and see AFME as essentially powerless in research. It reads like learned helplessness to me. Patient groups can and should do a lot more than support the status quo to ensure they still have a foot in the door.

The focus on the scientific debate around the PACE trial above all else is preventing this from happening.

We're missing a word or two.

"The focus on the scientific debate around the PACE trial above all else is preventing this [poor research] from happening [again]."

Fixed it.

I find it very hard to believe that they were not asked to sign the letter????
Surely someone knows/can remember more about this.

I'm sure they were. They were asked to after it was published, and that's why Emily (on FB) is saying it was a "setup". She seems unaware that many, many, many more people and organizations signed it after it was first published. It was not a plot to make AFME "look bad", it was the way that nearly everybody was presented with the opportunity to sign.

Posting now because this is getting long, but still reading through replies.

-J
 

Ysabelle-S

Highly Vexatious
Messages
524
sorry @Yogi I am a bit unfamiliar with facebook and need a bit of a helping hand, hopefully, full messages below

Glen Buchanan -Honestly, some of you really need to chill out and use your very clear anger/frustration about the situation people with M.E. face in a much more constructive way. Spending your time/energy moaning at someone else with the illness, criticising a charity that works so hard for us, twisting my words and pointlessly debating semantics with me is not going to help the cause in any way. I am not going to debate any more with any of you. I hope you find a way to make better use of your time and energy.
Like
· Reply · 35 mins

Molly Morriss
Glen, there seems a little confusion. These comments are directly related to the above post by AFME and specifically to AFME's decision not to take action by signing the letter calling for the retraction of PACE. We are not discussing or judging AFME's work in other areas. there seems to also be a lot of projection going on. You use the term vocal minority. this is incorrect, those calling for PACE are by far the majority. You see pretty much every other charity and ME organisation signed that letter, representing 100,000's members and sufferers worldwide. Many were asked to do so by there members and supporters, just as AFME was. AFME was THE ONLY one not to sign despite many requests to do so from the ME community it says it represents. it would be interesting to know how many of its members contacted AFME asking them not to sign and that they did not agree with the letter asking for the retraction of PACE. There is something greatly amiss with AFME's stance on this that should be questioned by supporters and members. To sign that letter was a no brainer as an ME organisation. AFME could have made the decision to stand united with the rest of the ME community, in doing so they would have gained the respect, faith and goodwill of the ME community. They would have gained a lot of praise , thanks and support for taking that stance. What charity or organisation does not want that from its members and supporters it seeks to represent. It would not have cost them a penny or a few minutes of their time to sign. They stood to gain a whole lot from signing and strengthen their position in the ME community. They knew they stood to loose and would face a backlash if they did not. So why didn't they? The only feesable explaination is that they stood to gain more by not signing or were set to loose more by signing that must have been a pretty big something, or was it some one?
Like
· Reply · 29 mins

Molly Morriss
It is a pretty strange thing that AFME have on several occasions talked of all working together and yet they themselves, when the opportunity arise to work together and the whole ME community is united around a common cause actively choose not to work together and to isolate themselves. They are the only charity and ME organisation to do this- WORLDWIDE, who is it who is guilty of not working together on behalf of ME patients?
Like
· Reply · 26 mins

Glen Buchanan
Molly Morriss Perhaps, like me and others, they don't see one letter as the be all and end all. They are working in so many ways to help us, and have called for answers in this statement - all of which the vocal minority are choosing to ignore so they can focus on this letter that made no difference. What is the point of banging on and on about that one letter. If you are so outraged by one letter than don't like their Facebook page or be a member. And speculating that they are gaining from not signing this letter or that there is some kind of conspiracy with someone is daft and misleading.
Like
· Reply · 23 mins · Edited

Molly Morriss
IT is not a case of just MOVE ON from the PACE scandal. Too many have been harmed as a result of this and we all still face the outfall from PACE when ever we come in contact with medical professionals. It is still causing considerable harm to patients and seriously misleading and misinforming practitioners. The PACE authors have the opportunity to end this now and allow the community to move on by retracting the paper and I would also add by apologizing for the harm caused, then we will all move on. It is not OK to tell people the have suffered great harm from something such as this to just move on, this is a grave injustice, it is harmful, the science is deeply flawed, first this must be recognised, then put right, then we can all move on. The PACE authors can do that no one else , but AFME being closely involved with authors and supports could have considerable influence here. They have chosen not to use it.
Like
· Reply · 19 mins

yes the vocal minority thing, how many times have we heard that from the BPS lots, so much so that now even ME sufferers are using it. Funny when they are so obviously the minority. If we are the vocal minority perhaps they could be the manipulative minority, the deceptive minority, what ever we need a name using the word minority that will stick to them ( the BPS lot) as they have done making it clear to al that it is them in the minority because that is the truth. It has worked for them for so long, so it clearly works.

He needs to take more responsibility for his posts and his use of language. He did not use words like hysterical and vocal minority, etc, by accident. I'm sorry, but there are all sorts of words one could use to address criticism, but he chose THOSE words. Loaded words and phrases in our community, used to defame us.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
If you use #MillionsMissing for your donation efforts then it should be to go to MEAction or the #MM campaign not for a psychosocial/PACEtrial/Esther Crawley/Peter White/CMRC/MEGA/DWP supporting charity.


This is really really unethical and another AFME scam uncovered.

Can we notify everyone at MEAction about this?

Absolutely creepy. I'll let them know.

.....sigh.

So unethical.

Behold my lack of surprise.
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
Check out how much money Sonya Chowdhury and Emily Beardall are gathering together from unsuspecting and innocent donators. I believe this is under false pretences as they are not working for people with ME but against pwME as seen here and instead for various fatigue/tiredness problems and for the PACE researchers (DWP and insurers) and Esther Crawley.

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/sonya-chowdhury

That justgiving page should be shut down. It is so unethical.

Absolutely creepy. I'll let them know.

.....sigh.

So unethical.

Behold my lack of surprise.

Thanks for doing that. I didn't even realise the full extent of AFME and Sonya's deviousness until pointed out by another poster. This makes me so angry:mad::mad::mad:

To be honest this deserves a thread of its own.
 
Last edited:

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
I'm really. Really. Really. Hoping that the misleading nature of that. Was not purposeful.

:thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:
Well their whole modus operandi has been about misleading pwME since the late 1990s. Without AFME the PACE trial could never have been launched. You seen this from 2003 archived as they removed all trace about their connection to the PACE trial off their website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030804230351/http://www.afme.org.uk/news/pace-q&a.shtml


This is just another small piece of their deception.
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
@Molly98 @AndyPR or any of the other 'vocal minority' on FB, any chance you can post the speech from
#MEAction at the #MillionsMissing protest in the UK?
http://limitedcapability.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/millionsmissing-protest-london-120517.html?spref=tw
as I doubt very much if AfME followers will be aware that retraction of PACE is supported by the Majority, not the minority.

eta: you might also ask..........have they actually seen Esther Crawleys presentation as what she was saying with regards to research is the opposite of what AfME are now claiming to be a prerequisite for any research they support.
 
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Jo Best

Senior Member
Messages
1,032
Can I just say thank you to the people taking the trouble to comment on Action for ME because I am blocked by them on Facebook and Twitter but theirs was the first page I joined when I signed up to Facebook in 2010 in 'blissful' ignorance of the history/politics/self-interest and it was only by reading content from 'aware' people mostly lobbying them to start funding biomedical research and to stop promoting psycho-behavioural therapies that my eyes were opened. That's also how I found about Esther Crawley's SMILE trial so I got involved in raising concerns with the authorities.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
I think the attempt here may not be so much to deceive as that they may be hemorrhaging money and support and this is an attempt to stop that.

I have said elsewhere that AfME's strength is in the money they do have is used quite effectively they are good at marketing themselves, and the info on their site is often quite useful.

Two other points, they are good at positioning themselves as the 'go to' charity for information and it is this that provides them with new blood.

Just the other day there was a 20 something lifestyle blogger who blogged on ME. It was a good piece (if I remember correctly) but it directed people to AfME for more info and it was picked up and retweeted by Dr Francis Ryan of the guardian. That's a lot of exposure. And AfME (as I've said) has some very helpful info on it's site.

If AfME don't want to sign anything regarding their stance on PACE I would suggest effort should be spent getting a clear statement on what people with ME consider to be problems with MEGA and Esther Crawley.

It is a big problem for Sonya Chowdhury in particular. At times I sense a real desire to do the right thing -- especially as I understand she has a son with ME
but to come out with a clear statement from AfME it must be palatable to all players there and there is no way that she can go up against Esther Crawley.

Soooo, having said that, what can we expect from AfME really? Esther Crawley is embedded in the organisation and has support from whom and to what degree? At what point will it be more convenient to severe ties? Edit for clarity: severe ties meaning anyone who wants good research from EC
 
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Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
@Molly98 @AndyPR or any of the other 'vocal minority' on FB, any chance you can post the speech from
#MEAction at the #MillionsMissing protest in the UK?
http://limitedcapability.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/millionsmissing-protest-london-120517.html?spref=tw
as I doubt very much if AfME followers will be aware that retraction of PACE is supported by the Majority, not the minority.

videos from the brilliant @L.A. Cooper !!!