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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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5 emotions which turn into Chronic fatigue.

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AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
Careful, all that anger might turn into chronic fatigue.. ;)

http://www.mickeltherapy.com/what-is-mickel-therapy/
Mickel Therapy is a talking based treatment for conditions including Anxiety, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), Depression, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, M.E / Post Viral Fatigue, Stress & other chronic illnesses.
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So it's magic then...

http://www.mickeltherapy.com/medical-conditions/chronic-fatigue/
As most of you suffering with the symptoms of CFS can attest, you were only given this diagnosis after an exhaustive battery of tests that excluded other ‘standard’ medical conditions. You have been told that you have a ‘syndrome’ with no known cause and that no consistently effective treatment exists. Much research has gone into CFS, especially looking for viral clues or other infective organisms. Despite the time and resources devoted to this, a direct infectious cause remains unproven.

Some clients have reported great benefit from Mickel Therapy as we try to address the cause rather than simply tackling the symtom.
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
FFS: "In this episode you will learn some of the metaphysical (‘beyond physical’) reasons for what causes prostate cancer."

If her bad karma hasn't given her all of these diseases yet for being an unscrupulous fraud, I think we can safely rule out the metaphysical as a culprit for any disease.
 
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JaimeS

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Invisible Woman said:
Just imagine when HIV or AIDS first came to light if this agenda was pushed to the exclusion of actual science?
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Errrr...

Casper Schmidt responded to Gallo's papers with "The Group-Fantasy Origins of AIDS", Journal of Psychohistory.[19] Schmidt posited that AIDS was not an actual disease, but rather an example of "epidemic hysteria" in which groups of people are subconsciously acting out social conflicts. Schmidt compared AIDS to documented cases of epidemic hysteria in the past which were mistakenly thought to be infectious.
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And if you like irony...

(Schmidt himself would later die of AIDS in 1994.)[20][21]
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Denialists are creepy creatures, but I can't imagine what this must've been like.

Papadopulos-Eleopulos et al. of the Perth Group, alleged in the journal Nature Biotechnology (then edited by fellow denialist Harvey Bialy) that the Western blot test for HIV was not standardized, non-reproducible, and of unknown specificity...[31][32]
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If you read Wikipedia's page on AIDS denialism, it's full of people using the same techniques as Wessley and Chalder et al. Then as now, the IOM said "nope, it's real" (and in this case) "it's really caused by a virus" but people claimed psychogenic attributions, autoimmune attributions, oxidative stress attributions, sometimes with a sprinkling of outright accusations of fraud against those nutty people who thought HIV caused AIDS.

I won't say that they drowned out the real science, but if you read the article, you'll see they did their best.

-J
 
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Invisible Woman

Senior Member
Messages
1,267
.... and yet still it goes on......:bang-head:

Is it just medicine that seems to carry on in a perpetual loop of denial, persecution and shaming of patients who in the end are shown to genuine biomed causes? Or does it just seem that way? Is there a reason why, as a profession, they seem particularly likely to have this kind of bias? I appreciate that there are a large number of great, diligent and brilliant docs and researchers out there, but their voices always seem to be drowned out, at least initially.

My background is very technical - not medical. In my field you could spout all the theory you want but at the end of the day, if the work doesn't resolve / design out the issues then you need to start checking your assumptions and reconsidering pretty quickly. Then when you move on to the next project/job/issue you bring that experience with you.

If you kept going through the same faulty reasoning loop you simply could never move forward.
 
T

Techs

Messages
22
I have a slightly different take (after listening to the whole thing). I don't think they are frauds, exactly. And they seem genuinely empathetic. It's very plausible to me that their therapy might help certain people who are overwhelmed, depressed, repressed, exhausted, confused, etc. Their error, of course, is in conflating such conditions with ME/CFS/FM etc.

The reason I listened to the whole thing is because they stressed early on that physical disease can manifest from the mishandling of our emotions -- a provocative, but not revolutionary, idea. They even conjectured that ME can progress to MS. I wanted to hear more about their theory of the mechanics behind this process. Perhaps they'd have some new insights? Unfortunately, this is precisely the area in which they are most superficial. This is where they're out too far over their skis, probably operating on mere hunches. They are much more comfortable defaulting to simpler themes such as the connection between emotions and fatigue.

The challenge for us here, who are taken aback by their conclusions, is that there are yet no reliable delineations between many different manifestations of similar conditions and symptoms. Perhaps even some members of Phoenix Rising would find themselves "cured" with Mickel Therapy. Others are bedridden with bodies at war with lingering and chronic retroviral or neurological or cellular or transmitter malfunctions. Some will disagree, but I'll bet there are as many unique combinations of disease etiologies here as there are members. Which is why the whole damn thing is so hard to figure out. (AIDS, by contrast, is caused by a specific, named retrovirus, HIV.)

For instance, while I don't believe stress causes this family of diseases, I do believe, for some, it can be part of the soup that triggered their illness. This is very different from implying (as the Mickel folk do) that the cure is to learn to handle stress differently. Even if I was totally to blame for blowing out my Camaro's engine by racing it without oil, it can't simply be fixed by filling it back up with oil and driving slower. Whatever insights some of these people may sometimes have, they seem to gloss over the fact that many of us are trying to function with severely impaired physical processes. (But then we're probably the one's who Mickel believes will take years and years of therapy to cure.)

The root of their system seems to be that we have two types of emotions: primary (instant, spontaneous, passing) and secondary (the verbal stories we chronically tell ourselves about the primary emotions). The primary emotions are crucial to us, and they should help guide our actions. The secondary emotions are where we risk making ourselves sick. But what if we were to live for an entire year under a constant onslaught of survival-based primary emotions, as say in wartime? Recently, finally, PTSD has been recognized as physiological. But not everyone who goes to war gets PTSD. Not everyone exposed to viruses gets ME. Doesn't it seem like each person's recipe of factors leading to their physical debilitation was unique? So, then, wouldn't it follow that there may be many unique paths back to health? Certainly we know enough about the mind-body connection that we should be able to recognize the role our emotions can play in our path to better health.

Still, these Mickels would be well advised to stop talking so glibly about ME, FM, MS, prostate cancer (!), etc, as if they all will eventually evaporate as we gradually improve the way we process our emotions.
 
JaimeS

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Techs said:
Even if I was totally to blame for blowing out my Camaro's engine by racing it without oil, it can't simply be fixed by filling it back up with oil and driving slower.
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Very good metaphor, and I agree. Suppose some of us blew out our adrenals or reprogrammed ourselves somehow through emotional trauma. It's still a leap to conclude that talk therapy and more exercise are the solution.

Invisible Woman said:
Is there a reason why, as a profession, they seem particularly likely to have this kind of bias?
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Yes. It's called "if I can't solve it, it doesn't exist" syndrome.

Teaching showed me that there are personality... er, 'quirks'... that seem more prevalent in teachers. A need for control, a dislike of change, a frustration with the lack of order inherent within students themselves that seems chronic in nature. You guys all have met the archetype. Then there's a subset of weird and wild outside-the-box thinkers. Then there are a few 'failed' scientists or novelists. Rarely the twain shall meet.

That's due to the nature of the profession, yeah? Hey: would you like to read from a prescripted set of directions to about 25 children several times every day in precisely the same way? Your profession is never going under, never going out of style (insert obligatory objection re: technology here) so it's secure. Does that sound good to you? If so, you may very well be a particular type of person.

Now: how about if I told you that people will come to you looking for help? It will be your job to listen to their problems and offer solutions: you are a mechanic for the human body. They can't help themselves so they will need your knowledge, expertise, and kind bedside manner. Does that sound good to you? If so, you may well be a particular type of person.

I don't mean to demonize either group -- just to point out that the aspects of getting to tell people what to do and to appear as the expert are something they have in common... and that this has certain implications.
 
JaimeS

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Techs said:
They even conjectured that ME can progress to MS.
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They wouldn't be the first to say so. Older texts say "atypical MS, which does sometimes progress to classical..." If you look over these reports it's clear that 'atypical MS' is in fact 'ME', and that's now listed as a synonym for the condition in several locations.

The thing is 'progress'? Or is it just that a similar genetic background of susceptibility and/or internal mileau applies to each?
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Techs said:
It's very plausible to me that their therapy might help certain people who are overwhelmed, depressed, repressed, exhausted, confused, etc. Their error, of course, is in conflating such conditions with ME/CFS/FM etc.
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I'm still not sure how they managed to conflate those conditions with cancer. Which suggests they have a much deeper problem - either insanity or an extremely predatory interest in exploiting the ill.

Techs said:
The challenge for us here, who are taken aback by their conclusions, is that there are yet no reliable delineations between many different manifestations of similar conditions and symptoms.
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But there is, unless ME/CFS is fatigue, and FM is pain, and IBS is indigestion, and prostate cancer is peeing lots. There's research and documents explaining what ME is, and even how it's different from FM, depression, anxiety, etc. There's lists of the tests and physical signs which are often abnormal, and will obviously differentiate these disease from emotions.

There is reliable delineation. These fraudsters ignore it. If they really cared about patients, they would know these documents, tests, and treatments by heart. Instead they start with the "cure" they have been trained in, and bend reality to apply it to as many conditions as possible. The only possible motivation for this is their personal profit.
 
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