A report about anti-glycation supps Carnosine Beta-Alanine (=methylation?)

[Gondwanaland]

Fascinating literature review on Carnosine - Carcinine is metioned on page 129 (enclosed)

And an open access review (2013)

 

[Gondwanaland]

Citrate stimulates carnosinase to destroy carnosine

 

[Tunguska]

Citrate stimulates carnosinase to destroy carnosine

That's interesting to me, because I'm "forced" to consume more citrate than I would like, in the form of orance juice + baking soda, and it's looking as though citrate is really not very good. (the juice has a lot of hesperidin though)

 

[Gondwanaland]

That's interesting to me, because I'm "forced" to consume more citrate than I would like, in the form of orance juice + baking soda, and it's looking as though citrate is really not very good. (the juice has a lot of hesperidin though)

Interestingly lemon juice is promoted as a healthy beverage for daibetics since acidic stuff improve insulin sensitivity.

For a long time I had been drinking a squeezed lemon in a glass of water before breakfast mainly to increase hydrochloric acid and improve digestion of breakfast, but since it can additionally have anti-estrogenic effects (AND I may have awaken an old ulcer), I am giving up on it.

Hesperidin is highly anti-estrogenic.

I'm "forced" to consume more citrate than I would like,

why is that so if I may ask?

 

[Tunguska]

Interestingly lemon juice is promoted as a healthy beverage for daibetics since acidic stuff improve insulin sensitivity.

For a long time I had been drinking a squeezed lemon in a glass of water before breakfast mainly to increase hydrochloric acid and improve digestion of breakfast, but since it can additionally have anti-estrogenic effects (AND I may have awaken an old ulcer), I am giving up on it.

Hesperidin is highly anti-estrogenic.

why is that so if I may ask?

Because of diet limitations. It's extreme by health nut standards but I rely on potassium-rich juices to get carbs and avoid most fibre except the select forms I tolerate, and orance juice although clearly flawed is one of my better options (as long as it's with baking soda). I require this to avoid gut disturbance and this appears to be more significant to my health than other considerations.

I'm not worried about anti-estrogenic effects and I get no apparent side effects on joints from hesperidin or anti-estrogen things. But I don't seek out hesperidin and might avoid it if I could just because it's a flavonoid with two-faced effects on mTor... but on the other hand I have a theory that it actually helps joints because it's an MMP inhibitor, and it may even increase BDNF in the brain. I think it's the only flavonoid I get in large quantities, and you could definitely do worse, unless the anti-estrogen is a serious issue for you.

Citrate on the other hand, appears to be a clear negative, and I have to be getting lots.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I require this to avoid gut disturbance

Is that a stomach ulcer? I am dealing with an ulcer right now... Will have an endoscopy next week, but had been diagnosed with a gastric ulcer back in 2010. Took several doses of pantoprazole until 2013 when I went gluten free and never had GERD or any stomach pain anymore and abandonned the PPIs for good.

So last month I was taking digestive enzymes (DPP-IV + Bromelain + Pepsin + Pancreatin) + Carcinine (which seemed especially acidifying), took Rutin + Bromelain + Trypsin a couple of times (it was miraculous for PEM and joint pain), then drank wine on one occasion and the pain I usually feel as a pressure on my back revealed itself as a probable ulcer, plus pain in 2 different points at the front of my stomach. B vitamins aggravate it (esp. B6-HCl).

Counter-intuitively, I am finding that a propolis alcoholic solution taken 30-60min before meals seems to protect the stomach wound in the back, but doesn't seem to help the frontal ones.

unless the anti-estrogen is a serious issue for you.

The most pressing issue has been the need to excrete uric acid which was impaired by low estrogen. After starting HRT this and several other issues resolved. Then carcinine tanked my levels even with replacement (estradiol is a phenol and it sped up its breakdown together with calcitriol and thyroid hormones).

Despite all that, I intend to take the carcinine at a lower dose perhaps 2x weekly, because I do need a hand with phenol and sulfite breakdown. It relieves fatigue, PEM and food intolerances, it seems to give me a normal appetite and I can reach and go beyond 2,000 calories daily.

At some point I hope to be able to take K2-MK4 (not without a little calcium and lysine).

Having said all that, I wonder if the fact that my blood type is O would be worsening the high acidity issues.

@Lolinda

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm not worried about anti-estrogenic effects

BTW estrogen receptors seem to be connected with protein digestion, since I took DPP-IV to help me break down the proline bonds and as a side effect I felt activation of estrogen receptors.

Also the bromelain seems to quickly produce purines, and I am under the impression that the anti-glycation supp increases pyrimidines and balances that.

 

[Asklipia]

@Gondwanaland Sorry about your ulcer.
Two people I know have successfully resolved all stomach ulcer problems.
My husband, by taking a homeopathic remedy :
https://www.soin-et-nature.com/fr/w...mplexe-c-228-trituration-30g-homeopathie.html
He takes a pinch when he feels his stomach, and the felling disappears. He has not used it in the last ten years, I suppose he is OK now.
A good friend takes this Brazilian plant. Chew a couple of leaves a few times a day, then spit out:
Same thing, he is now cured no symptoms in the last ten years.
Bálsamo-verde
Nome Científico: Sedum dendroideum praealtum
Thank you for all this information on carnosine! I am going to try. Should get my carcinine around 1st May and will report in detail.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you very much, I will look into the homeopathy and this plant! never heard of it...

Thank you for all this information on carnosine! I am going to try. Should get my carcinine around 1st May and will report in detail.

I am considering to switch to carnosine!
I recommend you to read thoroughly the 2 reviews I posted above.

 

[Tunguska]

Is that a stomach ulcer?

No, just general CFS/ME/possiblyother symptoms that are unpredictably worse depending on fiber and foods. I very clearly have gut problems but I already gave up trying to fix them, this simply minimizes the blowback on the body and it's the only thing that fairly consistently works.

Afraid I can't give you much input on the rest of that, so best wishes.

 

[Gondwanaland]

No, just general CFS/ME/possiblyother symptoms that are unpredictably worse depending on fiber and foods.

I know what you mean. after a rollercoaster with probiotics I finally found something that worked (B. infantis + B. longum), but unfortunately it is ruined now.

Regarding my ulcer, it seems that stopping the carcinine cold turkey might have aggravated it:

https://examine.com/supplements/beta-alanine/
When beta-alanine is ingested, it turns into the molecule carnosine, which acts as an acid buffer in the body. Carnosine is stored in cells and released in response to drops in pH. Increased stores of carnosine can protect against diet-induced drops in pH (which might occur from ketone production in ketosis, for example), as well as offer protection from exercise-induced lactic acid production.

A good friend takes this Brazilian plant. Chew a couple of leaves a few times a day, then spit out:
Same thing, he is now cured no symptoms in the last ten years.
Bálsamo-verde
Nome Científico: Sedum dendroideum praealtum

It seems to be a Mexican plant, and despite being popular in Brazil, impossible to buy online. The active molecule is kaempferol, and I do have Maytenus at home which is rich in it, with the added benefit of raising estrogen. Hoping not to get a migraine from it...

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Lolinda

https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/vitamins.php#b5
Pantothenic acid is also known as vitamin B5. In humans pantothenic acid is synthesized by colonic bacteria from β-alanine and pantoic acid. The pantothenate is then absorbed from the intestine via the action of a Na+-dependent transporter that is also responsible for biotin absorption from the gut.
...
Pantothenate is required for synthesis of coenzyme A (abbreviated CoA or CoASH) and is a component of the acyl carrier protein (ACP) domain of fatty acid synthase, FAS. Pantothenate is, therefore, required for the metabolism of carbohydrate via the TCA cycle and all fats and proteins. At least 70 enzymes have been identified as requiring CoA or ACP derivatives for their function including the same critical thiamine-dependent enzymes described above, the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (PDHc), 2-oxoglutarate (α-ketoglutarate) dehydrogenase (OGDH), and branched-chain α-ketoacid dehydrogenase (BCKD).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hipkiss 2009 p. 119

a recent study has shown that the presence of bestatin, an inhibitor of the enzyme carnosinase which cleaves the dipeptide into its constituent amino acids, histidine, and b-alanine, suppressed the efficacy of carnosine in the mouse brain stroke model (Min et al., 2008). Indeed the presence of bestatin increased stroke severity but did not raise cerebral carnosine levels. This may indicate that conversion of the dipeptide into histidine and b-alanine is required for efficacy; alternatively bestatin may have been exerting other unidentified effects.

So carcinine may not help with stroke

 

[Gondwanaland]

I can't emphasize this enough:

Hipkiss 2009

p. 93
Carnosine is an avid chelator of metal ions (Baran, 2000). Complexes with calcium, copper, and zinc ions have been described (Trombley et al., 2000).

p. 120
It is suggested that the carnosine–zinc complex both stimulates bone formation by osteoblasts and decreases bone resorption by the osteoclasts (Yamaguchi, 1995; Yamaguchi and Kishi, 1995a). The mechanisms involved remain obscure, but it appears that in cultured mouse marrow cells the carnosine–zinc complex inhibits osteoclast cell formation, when present at between 10 (- 6) and 10 (- 4) M, by inhibiting the action of transforming growth factor-b (Yamaguchi and Kishi, 1995a) and parathyroid hormone, possibly by interfering with calcium signaling (Yamaguchi and Kishi, 1995b). It is also possible that the zinc–carnosine complex enhances the anabolic effects of estrogen on osteoblasts (Yamaguchi and Matsui, 1997). It is clear from these observations that carnosine, when complexed with zinc, may have beneficial effects towards control of osteoporosis but many more studies, including double-blind trials in humans, are required before any unequivocal statement of its efficacy can be made.

So it can increase the need for calcium like K2-MK4 does.

 

[Gondwanaland]

That's interesting to me, because I'm "forced" to consume more citrate than I would like, in the form of orance juice + baking soda, and it's looking as though citrate is really not very good. (the juice has a lot of hesperidin though)

I am under the impression that citrate stimulates carnosine turnover, so not a bad thing after all.

 

[Asklipia]

Hipkiss 2009 p. 119

a recent study has shown that the presence of bestatin, an inhibitor of the enzyme carnosinase which cleaves the dipeptide into its constituent amino acids, histidine, and b-alanine, suppressed the efficacy of carnosine in the mouse brain stroke model (Min et al., 2008). Indeed the presence of bestatin increased stroke severity but did not raise cerebral carnosine levels. This may indicate that conversion of the dipeptide into histidine and b-alanine is required for efficacy; alternatively bestatin may have been exerting other unidentified effects.
So carcinine may not help with stroke

I have received my carcinine and taken 100 mg per day for the last three days. Immediate boost in energy, a couple of detox pimples straightaway. Consistent with what you have reported in the first post of this thread.
This did not occur with normal carnosine 500 mg.
So there must be a special effect. How safe? I do not recommend anything!!!!!! Just reporting.
Be well!
EDIT : I just realized that the 100 mg I have been taking of Glycoxil contain just 10 mg carcinine. So effecyively I have been taking 10 mg carcinine per day.

 

[Asklipia]

I notice that carcinine is now available in Europe http://www.supersmart.com/en--Blood-Sugar-Glycation--Carcinine-50-mg--0731
It seems their dosage is not 50 mg, but 150 mg if the label it to be be believed.
EDIT : This is 150 mg Glycoxil, that is 15 mg per capsule.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have received my carcinine and taken 100 mg per day for the last three days. Immediate boost in energy, a couple of detox pimples straightaway. Consistent with what you have reported in the first post of this thread.
This did not occur with normal carnosine 500 mg.
So there must be a special effect. How safe? I do not recommend anything!!!!!! Just reporting.
Be well!

Should you discontinue it, I recommend a slow tapering down, not cold turkey like I did because it optimizes sulfite oxidase (my personal conclusion), and if you stop abruptly you will become extremely sulfite intolerant.

If you need to read about sulfites, I have a long reference list with published studies.

 

[Asklipia]

it optimizes sulfite oxidase (my personal conclusion), and if you stop abruptly you will become extremely sulfite intolerant.
.

Thank you for the advice! How long did it take you to get over the sulfite pxydase problem? Did you do anything special?

I noticed today that I refused a glass of wine with my lunch. I had absolutely no desire for it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you for the advice! How long did it take you to get over the sulfite pxydase problem? Did you do anything special?

I observed some new food intolerances for about one month when only butter+honey helped allergies (rhinitis), and about a week ago I reintroduced my probiotics (which haven't been helping) Milk Thistle and silica (helped a little), and microdosing B2, B6 and lisine (helped a lot).

I noticed today that I refused a glass of wine with my lunch. I had absolutely np desire for it.

How odd, in my imagination I would drink as much wine as I wished if I took carcinine steadily with the proper companion nutrients... Perhaps there is some nutrient conflict with your high dose B1 (wild guessing).

BTW I noticed increased blue light intolerance AFTER DISCONTINUING IT (esp. LED) and 0.5mg B2 at bedtime has been a life/sleep saver.