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A report about anti-glycation supps Carnosine Beta-Alanine (=methylation?)

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
This sounds like a wild ride. Though the up side sounds enticing, I have to say! I'm in the middle of somethting right now, which I'll post on soon...after a bit of blood work returns and I can digest what it all means.

The more I read, the less I understand!
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
ANti-glycation supps chelate metals and minerals, among them calcium and copper. Completing the jigsaw, piece by piece.
OTOH
18) Carnosine Protects Bone Health
Carnosine-zinc complexes (Zinc Carnosine) have been shown to treat and reverse bone loss in animal and human models by stimulating bone growth by osteoblasts (R, R1).

It is speculated that Carnosine may enhance the positive effects of estrogen on bone growth (R).

Carnosine reduces glycation, a process which can cause problems with bone cell (osteoblast) function (R, R1).

When placed in the connective tissue of rats, Carnosine promoted the production of vimentin, a cell protein important for the maintenance of bone integrity (R).
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
i haven't researched it but i would try the one used in most research - carnosine - before assuming they are the same. we can theorize about this or that but the quick and certain empirical method is by actually trying it sometime in the future. the symptoms appeared quickly on carcinine so one should know quickly too.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
https://examine.com/supplements/beta-alanine/
Increased stores of carnosine can protect against diet-induced drops in pH (which might occur from ketone production in ketosis, for example), as well as offer protection from exercise-induced lactic acid production.
....
Carnosine is abundant in skeletal muscle, but can also be found in the brain and the cardiac muscle. Its foremost role is to maintain the acid base equilibrium (buffering H+ ions), but it is also neuroprotective (a potential treatment for autism[8]), anti-aging[9], antioxidant[10], protective against glycation[11], and it can sensitize contractile muscles to calcium.[12]
....
The synthesis or intake of beta-alanine, not histidine, is the rate-limiting step in carnosine synthesis in vivo.[14] Beta-alanine is synthesized in the liver[15] then transported to muscle cells, where carnosine is in turn synthesized (and stored, in type II more than in type I muscle fibers).
...
Beta-alanine increases muscle carnosine stores to a greater degree than the same oral dose of carnosine (with the difference becoming nonsignificant with increasing carnosine dose). This may be due to a higher percentage of ingested beta-alanine being devoted to skeletal muscle,[18] as compared to ingested carnosine. Ingested carnosine cannot enter muscles cells to a significant extent,[13]but it can be hydrolyzed in vivo into its two substrates, beta-alanine and histidine, which can enter muscles cells and there serve to synthesize carnosine.
...
Deficiency states, redeemable through supplementation, are possible with some pseudo-vitamin compounds, such as creatine or carnitine (L-carnitine). Beta-alanine does not appear to be similar in this regard. Dietary histidine deficiency, on the other hand, depresses serum and muscle levels of both beta-alanine and carnosine.[21] Levels are restored when histidine is supplemented.[22]

Beta-alanine and carnosine do not have pseudo-vitamin status. Any state of deficiency related to either could also be called a general “protein deficiency” associated with the essential amino acid histidine. It can be avoided by consuming more protein.

Carnosine levels are lower in vegetarians (as compared to omnivores) and decrease with age, but the physiological consequences are uncertain.
...
As a rule, the availability of beta-alanine is the limiting factor in carnosine production. Only in the case of an actual histidine deficiency does supplementing histidine increase carnosine stores. @picante
...
While elevated carnosine levels can be found in the serum of animals, humans seem to rapidly hydrolyze ingested carnosine. Consequently, supplementing with beta-alanine seems preferable to supplementing with carnosine.

At equal doses, supplemental beta-alanine appears more effective than supplemental carnosine at increasing muscle carnosine, with all the associated ergogenic benefits.[18]
....
Carnosine, the product that beta-alanine forms to buffer H+ ions, appears to exert rudimentary anti-aging properties. It has been hypothesized to act like resveratrol, due to their respective mechanisms being linked to exercise.[9]
.....
Carnosine depletion appears to be associated with aging. Increasing carnosine stores may attenuate the aging process.
...
Beta-alanine may have effects similar to the inhibitory neurotransmitters glycine and GABA, while at the same time competing with these molecules. The overall consequences are unclear at this time.
.....
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
i take it because i am aging and they say older people become deficient in it. rather be safe than sorry. carnosine for muscle i am less concerned about.

>While elevated carnosine levels can be found in the serum of animals, humans seem to rapidly hydrolyze ingested carnosine. Consequently, supplementing with beta-alanine seems preferable to supplementing with carnosine.

i don't remember the reason i chose carnosine over the other but it may have had to do with side effects. i don't remember.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Another "interesting" side-effect of stopping the anti-glycation sup is that calcium is going to wrong places ( @Violeta ) e.g., a callus is growing at the sole of my foot.

i take it because i am aging
Aren't we all? ;) For some people it starts earlier, according to the insults suffered. Interestingly it has been said before that people with ME tend to look younger than they really look (me incl.), but at what cost?

Here is the Carnosine/Beta-Alanine pathway

I see it intersects with pyrimidines, so a poor functioning glyoxylate pathway might explain why I have excess purines.

It also intersects with oxalates
OxalatesTowsendLetter.jpg

Source
 
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prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
I always looked younger. no downfall in this. i knew some people age very quickly. they needed the varnosine and b1 real bad.

my goal is to get healthier as I age.
i aspire to become a paradox... lol ... oxalates tend to get associated with kidney stones. ... purines ... interesting

on a side note,
i'm going to do some liver cleaning with TUDCA sometime this week ... just recently having gallstones ,,, it will clean out my galbladder even better plus make my liver healthier
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
i'm going to do some liver cleaning with TUDCA sometime this week ... just recently having gallstones ,,, it will clean out my galbladder even better plus make my liver healthier
I have just made 2 flushes in a row unintentionally after stopping the supplement... The 1st one with sulfites, and the 2nd one with phenols + boron + sulfites :ill: Feeling no improvement :thumbdown: more like run over by a truck :aghhh:
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Good for you! What about Mean Cell Volume?
Good for me and bad for him :(

My MCV is 92,5 fL (81,0 - 99,0 fL)
His is 89

Both seem normal

Edit - BTW from my modest improvement in RBC count it is hard to know if it was an actual improvement or if I am still dehydrated from the past weeks vomiting sessions (sulfites phenols boron overload) thus increasing the [RBC]
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Just like with K2-MK4, I felt the anti-glycation supplement increased the need for lysine. Yesterday I supplemented lysine with the following outcomes:
- it seems to lower cortisol Reference, making it harder to get out of bed in the following morning if taken at night
- it abolishes joint pain - by binding copper? Reference
- odorless urine - while high arginine foods make for foul-smelling urine since starting on methylation supps
- a bit of heaviness in members - forearms and calves - apparently it slows down kidney function and causes some edema (this is probably just me with impaired kidney function)

https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/#summary4-2
Lysine is investigated for its role in glycation as it is claimed to be a molecular chaperone

When testing lysine, the enzyme known as lysozyme experiences less glycation when incubated in the presence of lysine[1] and the glycation of albumin appeared to be reduced in diabetic rats given 0.1% lysine in their drinking water.[19]

Lysine shows preliminary promising in limiting glycation seen during states of high blood glucose, but the precise mechanism and potency relative to other options is unknown

https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/#summary4-3
When supplementation of lysine (1.5g twice daily) was given to type II diabetic patients who were also given Metformin and glibenclamide over three months it was found that the addition of lysine to these two drugs showed benefit in reducing fructosamine, AGEs, and fasting blood sugar while improving the content and activity of lysozyme slightly.[1]

https://examine.com/supplements/lysine/#summary7-0
Lysine is thought to increase calcium absorption in humans.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
A comment by @keenly helped me to understand the common thread among the depletions in my blood levels caused by the anti-glycation supplement:
  • lowered thyroid hormones (raised TSH)
  • lowered estradiol
  • lowered calcitriol
So the energy I got from it was due to improved phenol breakdown. It makes sense regarding the tiredness I had my whole life since a child in physical education class. My sister had it too.

Additionally it also improved transsulfuration - or is it still phenol? - improved tolerance to sulfur foods... It apparently lowered my B1 though.

Perhaps if I take it at a dosage of 3mg 2x weekly I could have improved energy? Or too dangerous side effects? One thing for sure, it helps me to increase my calorie intake since I tolerate almost everything... I was finally able to eat above 1,500 kcal
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Extra lysine is definetly needed, looking for the right timing and dosage (guinea pig mode ON)

L-Lysine is an essential amino acid that must be obtained through the diet or through supplementation. Lysine is necessary for the production of all proteins in the body, and is required for the maintenance of the structural proteins collagen and elastin, which form all connective tissue such as skin, tendon, and bone. L-Lysine is also a precursor to L-carnitine, which is needed for fat metabolism and energy production. In addition, L-Lysine may help to support a healthy immune system and proper cardiovascular function.
(I don't take this particular brand)

I like that: @prioris
Lysine is an Lp(a) binding inhibitor, meaning at sufficient dosage it can reverse the plaster cast build-up (atherosclerotic plaques.) Lp(a) is the sticky form of LDL cholesterol that Pauling/Rath identified as the primary risk factor.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Yes, alarming. We are wating for an appt with hematologist , the sooner I could get is in 10 days. He presents several symptoms of polycythemia. As a matter of fact, this might have been an issue all along causing him fatigue, heat intolerance etc. He has always had high blood volume, but it used to be in the higher half of the range.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Ray Sahelian on Carnosine
Usage, dosage, how much to take
Half or one carnosine capsule before or with breakfast a few times a week, or as directed by your qualified health consultant. The capsule can be opened by pulling on each side and emptying some of the contents in a cup.

Q. Dr. Kyriazis, a leading anti-aging MD in the UK, based on his human trials of carnosine and current research states the current marketed dosing is based upon studies done with mice and cancer patients and that dosage of 100-200 mg are effective in humans while doses greater than 500 mg show adverse and reverse effects. Obviously there is a dosage transition area between 200 and 500. This doctor recommends ideally - 100 to 150 mg a day. Your comment on this article would be highly appreciated.

A. Nobody knows for sure what the ideal dosage is in humans, and every person is different. However as a general guideline, I believe the lower amounts are probably just fine and people can open a 500 mg capsule and take a portion of it a few times a week.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
It just occurred to me that for people with high RBC levels such as my husband ( @picante ) glycation might be beneficial to decrease excess RBCs. I think glycation can induce lysis since his Hb1AC tested at 5.0, which is much too low for someone with MetSyn (very high Triglicerids, Ferritin and basal insulin).

Chris Masterjohn: Mastering Nutrition Episode 012: What Is Measuring Our Hba1c REALLY Telling Us About Our Blood Glucose and Diabetes Risk?

Chris Kresser: Why Hemoglobin A1c Is Not a Reliable Marker