Agreed, when I took it. I did not notice one single side effect. Except my wallet...
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Dr. Ronald W. Davis Answers Patient Questions: Q and A follow-up to 2/21/17 Research Update
- Thread starter Ben H
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Marc_NL
Senior Member
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- 471
Agreed, when I took it, it helped me a lot
@msf
Seems early to say which antibiotics are high risk or not (either way) because the effect can be cell type-specific, there's multiple pathways and there is missing research on everything. Most of our discussions are ambiguous about cell types.
But you should expect doxycycline (typical acne treatment) to be a net mTor inhibitor because it's a metabolism/growth inhibitor in regular and cancer cells and FoxO1 inducer:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0064561
http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/10/3995.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746104/
http://www.jbc.org/content/283/12/7411.full
I doubt doxycyline would "cause" "CFS/ME" to any degree that accutane and fluoroquinolones might. I've taken and researched all 3 and more, and while none of them feel good, there's no comparison. Doxycycline is a ROS scavenger and can be used in place of NAC.
Still, all absorbable antibiotics do pose special considerations in my mind because they're forcefully intended/designed to maintain concentrations 24 hours a day and you get no choice about it.
Seems early to say which antibiotics are high risk or not (either way) because the effect can be cell type-specific, there's multiple pathways and there is missing research on everything. Most of our discussions are ambiguous about cell types.
But you should expect doxycycline (typical acne treatment) to be a net mTor inhibitor because it's a metabolism/growth inhibitor in regular and cancer cells and FoxO1 inducer:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0064561
http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/10/3995.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746104/
http://www.jbc.org/content/283/12/7411.full
I doubt doxycyline would "cause" "CFS/ME" to any degree that accutane and fluoroquinolones might. I've taken and researched all 3 and more, and while none of them feel good, there's no comparison. Doxycycline is a ROS scavenger and can be used in place of NAC.
Still, all absorbable antibiotics do pose special considerations in my mind because they're forcefully intended/designed to maintain concentrations 24 hours a day and you get no choice about it.
Seems like you are right: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24280420
Interestingly, it looks like magnesium may have some effect on either the inhibition or its knock-on effects (I can´t tell which because it´s not open access.)
Interestingly, it looks like magnesium may have some effect on either the inhibition or its knock-on effects (I can´t tell which because it´s not open access.)
AndyPR
Senior Member
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Thanks, I didn't see that one (2014) and will definitely read it later. I'm out of time and sleep. (it's just one example but you see FoxO1 has predictive power; unlike with AMPK and autophagy there don't seem to be any cases where it upregulates at the same time as mTor)
The magnesium is a well known thing (not anecdotally but in the medicine and research), but I'll read it later just to see what the angle was in that study. (more generally in the cancer research it's critical to know nutrients because the nutrient/energy availability determines whether FoxO increases survival processes or triggers apoptosis)
That's no doubt in vitro, but I think there's a point to be made, that 24h high blood levels of a substance (doxycycline half-life is 20+ hours) is the closest you can get to in vitro. I assume the constant blood levels are part of why Dr. Davis feels the need to caution about antibiotics, especially long term courses for dubious off-label uses. I'm not worried about taking a 1-week course of doxycycline for acute infection, it's the safest choice you get (azithromycin was pretty kind to me also).
Back in 2011 when I think I went into full blown cfs mode(beforehand I was sick but still maintaining in a sort of semi healthy equilibrium) I had 3 long courses of antibiotics for "prostatitis"..a month of bactrim, a month of doxycycline, and a month of cipro. I was never the same after that.
eljefe19
Senior Member
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- 483
Wouldn't the mTOR inhibition only affect you while you were still taking the drugs? I'm confused how this could lead to long term dysfunction unless it has to do with dysbiosis caused by the ABX?
Really have no clue. Im not claiming it was mtor inhibition that caused the issues anyway, just responding because Im seeing antibiotics being discussed. I know they further screwed up my already screwed up stomach so Im sure thats part of it. However there are plenty of horror stories all over the internet of people being seriously harmed by cipro in particular. All I can tell you is they made my symptoms way worse and seemed to embed them "deeper" if that makes sense.
I was desperate to try and get rid of the "prostatitis"(and they didnt end up even working for that which is the sick irony of the whole thing) that I continued taking them well longer than I should have.
eljefe19
Senior Member
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- 483
It does make sense. Sometimes this disease is fleeting and you almost forget it exists, and then sometimes it's a legit prison. I feel for ya bro, hopefully we're onto something here with all this mTOR talk.
Yeah, just 2 weeks ago I was feeling relatively well and at some point must have overdone it, and this week I feel like I got hit by a truck. really frustrating.
eljefe19
Senior Member
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- 483
Similarly, I had a great week last week. This week, not so much. Gotta roll with the punches I suppose.
Did you share that before? I can't remember. My experience was hilariously similar. But to put things in perspective I only completed 3 days of a fluoroquinolone course and it destroyed parts of my body permanently, ended my life as I knew it, and worsened CFS (that was actually the least severe part, but it counts) (this is a tiny part of the story). In contrast I had several several-month-long courses of doxycycline in my life with no apparent damage (to CFS or other), only discomfort during the course. The doxycycline was actually used in research to counteract the fluoroquinolone effects (ROS and MMP activity), to good effect. So although I still have questions about long-term (4 month+) of any antibiotic, and relative risk between say macrolides and tetracyclines, some things are pretty damn obvious.
Anyhow: It's gonna take 50 years for urology to get their shit together. The only thing you can count on is more of these stories popping up.
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gregh286
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Yeah that's true. Definitely I feel its a cell defense mechanism.
I can bring on a crash now if I drink alcohol fast in empty stomach. Really bad reaction.
If I drink slow with food it's ok.....somehow fooling my defence.
I wonder is it the gut cells that is sending out the alarm trigger or something in serum.
We all seem to react to ME/CFS "triggers" differently, alcohol has little effect on me except to make me tired. It doesn't even have an intoxicating effect, i can drink it till i throw up and be sober but very exhausted (though it does make me more nauseous, nausea being a problem i've had with any food or drink since i was a teenager).
Cort's latest article helps explain Dr. Davis' current work: http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=30067
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I developed ME acute onset at age 33 after trip to 3rd world country and about a year after I stopped taking Accutane. I had bad heel pain with Accutane so I had to take a lower dose for a longer period of time. I was also on a series of antibiotics for sinus infections that wouldn't go away for 2 months before my sudden onset. I wonder if there is a connection. I will hit my 14th anniversary for ME in 2 weeks. I have real hope now though because of Ron Davis and family- so thankful for their research and outreach to us!!!
A.B.
Senior Member
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I used accutane around the time my illness began.
Yeah I think accutane might have started my CFS too. At the very least, I know for sure I developed a long-term Vitamin A functional deficiency from it. It seems to cause a persistence syndrome that ranges from CFS in some people to propecia-like *androgen resistance in others, none of which is understood. The odds of solving CFS/ME look better at this point.
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