Over Activation of Farnesoid X Receptor In the Ilium Driving Liver and Gut Disharmony

[aquariusgirl]

All of it pls!!

Elevated cholesterol here.

Fatty liver discovered on one of my multiple gallbladder scans that never found anything except a dilated bile duct.

Very low secondary bile acids.

Just many sub clinical gallbladder issues,.

Recently started supplementing glycine & day 3 woke up w/major liver pain ..,

One of my autism mom friends posted this :" also Glycine (including TMG/DMG) flushes gallstones. IF gallstones are not dissolved enough and if you start a high dose of Glycine without first using gallstone dissolvers, you can congest your liver. It may have NOTHING at all to do with oxalates. But a different kind of stone. Lots of our sick kids in our community can have gunked bile ducts and more and supplementing gallstone flushers without first breaking down the stones, you can get pain and discomfort and symptoms of gallstone problems."

 

[aquariusgirl]

Has bdeep86 posted his website?

 

[Bdeep86]

Its naturalreset.org I am still getting it up and running. I'm new to making a sites.

 

[Bdeep86]

All of it pls!!

Elevated cholesterol here.

Fatty liver discovered on one of my multiple gallbladder scans that never found anything except a dilated bile duct.

Very low secondary bile acids.

Just many sub clinical gallbladder issues,.

Recently started supplementing glycine & day 3 woke up w/major liver pain ..,

One of my autism mom friends posted this :" also Glycine (including TMG/DMG) flushes gallstones. IF gallstones are not dissolved enough and if you start a high dose of Glycine without first using gallstone dissolvers, you can congest your liver. It may have NOTHING at all to do with oxalates. But a different kind of stone. Lots of our sick kids in our community can have gunked bile ducts and more and supplementing gallstone flushers without first breaking down the stones, you can get pain and discomfort and symptoms of gallstone problems."

Taurine would be better option over glycine, I would not supplement glycine. The oxalate issues stem mostly from low bile flow. Since fat isn't being broken down calcium mixes with the fat and this prevents calcium from binding with the oxalates so they are able to do more damage.

 

[Bdeep86]

This is really interesting I was diagnosed with Gilbert's at 17 after a bad case of mono. I have always had liver discomfort and yellows eyes but never elevated bilirubin in the blood also had my gallbladder out 7 years ago. After being put on artemisinin by my naturopath I felt great for 3 weeks had normal bowels. He kept me on it too long without puksing and liver became inflamed I have had the worst relapse ever in the last 5 weeks starting with terrible diarrhea and food intolerances then progressing to unreal fatigue and all the usual awful symptoms returning only starting to come back to some kind of baseline now. Was only discussing with the wife I think the liver is were I need to focus and get that working well with the gut would be interested to know more when you are ready.

The liver and gut are both key players in what sustains the condition. What causes their dysfunction from resolving on their own is much deeper and reaches a cellular level.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Yeah I am using taurine but glycine reaches parts taurine can't. Oh my god my sleep on glycine!

Also important in protein folding per Stephanie Seneff.

From my autism mom friend:

"I started to take one of my boys DMG capsules after seeing Steph Seneff's presentation on Glyphosate (Round Up GMOs) poisoning in our food supply. Yikes! She recommends glycine as one way to counter GMO poisoning so the body has Glycine to use properly for protein folding as Glyphosate otherwise will be used and it doesn't work. I think everyone in America needs Glycine."

 

[mariovitali]

@Bdeep86

Hey Bob just went through your website and wanted to throw my 2 cents.


First i would like to point out that there have been extensive mentions of Bile acid Metabolism dysregulation on my posts regarding FXR (NR1H4) and other receptors such as LXR and CAR.

The first one, dated Nov 14, 2015 :

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-60#post-664750


then we have :


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-85#post-759322

and


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-69#post-693857

The Latest research which i will post very soon will -hopefully- bring new elements forward such as the importance of Sulfation (among other things)

It appears to me that for a large number of CFS Sufferers (but also Post-Finasteride, Post-Accutane Syndrome etc) , Sulfation is a major part of the puzzle. This has been selected by the algorithms i use for my Research :


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-91#post-814452


Sure enough, FXR is there but there are also many entries for Sulfation, Sulfatide and PAPS (all related to Sulfation). Note also the entry for adrenal insufficiency.

Please note that without proper Sulfation you do not get Conjugated Bile Acids and as a result you get many more problems with Toxic Bile acids bringing havoc to your Gut and Liver. I think this may be a major problem which is related to FXR and Bile acid homeostasis in general so i just wanted to communicate this to everyone.

 

[Bdeep86]

@Bdeep86

Hey Bob just went through your website and wanted to throw my 2 cents.


First i would like to point out that there have been extensive mentions of Bile acid Metabolism dysregulation on my posts regarding FXR (NR1H4) and other receptors such as LXR and CAR.

The first one, dated Nov 14, 2015 :

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-60#post-664750


then we have :


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-85#post-759322

and


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-69#post-693857

The Latest research which i will post very soon will -hopefully- bring new elements forward such as the importance of Sulfation (among other things)

It appears to me that for a large number of CFS Sufferers (but also Post-Finasteride, Post-Accutane Syndrome etc) , Sulfation is a major part of the puzzle. This has been selected by the algorithms i use for my Research :


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-91#post-814452


Sure enough, FXR is there but there are also many entries for Sulfation, Sulfatide and PAPS (all related to Sulfation).

Please note that without proper Sulfation you do not get Conjugated Bile Acids and as a result you get many more problems with Toxic Bile acids bringing havoc to your Gut and Liver. I think this may be a major problem which is related to FXR and Bile acid homeostasis in general so i just wanted to communicate this to everyone.

The FXR receptor is actually only a small part of what I think is going overall. There is a deeper level to this which is causing the FXR signaling to become dysfunctional. Even deeper than bile acids or gut dysbiosis. Which are both contributing, but I don't think they are the strongest component in altering FXR receptor signaling.

I won't be surprised to see impaired sulfation in the liver. You are going to see many abnormalities in the liver, low levels of acute phase reactants, dysfunctional heme synthesis, fatty deposits..ect. The bi-products of gut overgrowth its self is going to keep the liver steadily flooded and its pathways burdened.

 

[mariovitali]

The FXR receptor is actually only a small part of what I think is going overall. There is a deeper level to this which is causing the FXR signaling to become dysfunctional.

This is what i am also saying basically hence the mention of Sulfation : FXR is an important part of the puzzle but not the only component.

However it is not clear still to me which is the major part of your Theory since in the title of this Thread you mention FXR as the main component.

 

[Bdeep86]

This is what i am also saying basically hence the mention of Sulfation : FXR is an important part of the puzzle but not the only component.

However it is not clear still to me which is the major part of your Theory since in the title of this Thread you mention FXR as the main component.

So what I believe is going on is at a cellular level, which I will write about this week. This initial thing I put out is more to convey the concept of liver and gut miscommunication as a driver of the fatigue. The bile acid is the language in which they speak to each other. The FXR which I mention in the title refers specifically the FXR in the Ileum.

The potential for dysbiosis and parasites when there is even a hiccup in this communication is another major concept here. Not only do they influence bile metabolism, but like I stated the keep the liver flooded with their bi-products. The leaky gut contributes even more toxins to be processed by liver. The more you investigate the more you see that the microbiome is profoundly influencing the liver even if originally started as a liver issue. "Liver invades Spleen" this is a concept in which Chinese Medicine wrote about thousands of years ago. Chronic fatigue in their view is a "spleen-liver disharmony" what I was trying to do with this theory is overlap their viewpoint and what might be going on from a western standpoint.

This disharmony essentially leads to us not getting any nutrients or energy from our food. Our blood quality begins to greatly suffer and become quite toxic. Looking at epigenetics is fine. However, its very difficult to determine what is actually being expressed. Our microbiome has such a profound influence over our genes that I give it priority in the grand scheme of things.

I put out this initial concept, because I feel that it is a good starting point for the more detailed concepts that follow it and control it. Hence why I have divided it into parts. I don't believe the FXR is the end all be all, but rather what is pivotal receptor in sustaining the disharmony. There is a layer beneath this.

Bile Acid is fine as a compliment in the therapy. I strongly believe that you have to create the proper environment in the liver for this to work. Most people with CFS are going to hit a wall with taking TUDCA without the proper foundation. I have seen people take it, feel well for a week or two and then actually have things become worse. I believe this is due to high levels of backed up fat, stored metals and toxins being rapidly dumped into the bile. Which in turn winds up clogging the liver.

 

[eljefe19]

@Bdeep86 So do you recommend ABX to clear the dysbiosis? Agents to heal leaky gut? What is the foundation you mentioned necessary for taking TUDCA?

 

[Bdeep86]

@Bdeep86 So do you recommend ABX to clear the dysbiosis? Agents to heal leaky gut? What is the foundation you mentioned necessary for taking TUDCA?

No I don't recommend ABX. Foundation for tolerating TUDCA has a couple elements, diet being a major player.

 

[collie]

Started Tudca 4 weeks ago, personally this has been one of the best supps I have ever taken. I was already taking ox bile and hcl which helped with reflux but this has been amazing for my bowel problems. Liver pain is gone I would get this in a flair up and have it on and off, stools normal colour and consistency only had two episodes of mild diarrhea in the four weeks and haven't had any for at least two weeks which is a complete sea change from nearly every day.

I had changed my diet maybe four weeks before starting the tudca, removed sugar (have had one or two lapses ) and don't eat any processed food except for a small amount of bread maybe once a week, i do still take a small amount of dairy as never had a problem with this. After a week or two I added choline to my regimen since I am homozygous mthfr c677t and reckoned since I had my galbladder removed due to polyps and stones this was probably an issue for me, made me a bit foggy headed the first few times took it but now no problems with it at all. Skin is much better and energy levels are pretty good in the morning, not what they should be but improvement in mood and being able to drag myself out of bed much more easily. Definite improvement in my muscle energy not getting that lactic acid feeling so easily especially when walking up stairs or using my arms.

Also added in cholostrum and glutamine for leaky gut and a probiotic from primal defense based on recommendation from PR user as I have serious dysbiotic bacteria in the bowel and parasites. Not the panacea for all my problems and symptoms,it is early days but a definite big help so far and hoping it continues.

Next for myself is a trip to KDM and see if there are any infections going on as starting to finally realise that for myself my illness is probably a combination of several problems.

 

[Bdeep86]

I had changed my diet maybe four weeks before starting the tudca, removed sugar (have had one or two lapses ) and don't eat any processed food except for a small amount of bread maybe once a week, i do still take a small amount of dairy as never had a problem with this. After a week or two I added choline to my regimen since I am homozygous mthfr c677t and reckoned since I had my galbladder removed due to polyps and stones this was probably an issue for me, made me a bit foggy headed the first few times took it but now no problems with it at all. Skin is much better and energy levels are pretty good in the morning, not what they should be but improvement in mood and being able to drag myself out of bed much more easily. Definite improvement in my muscle energy not getting that lactic acid feeling so easily especially when walking up stairs or using my arms.

This is part of it. Though diet (sugar elimination is massive) you can start to create the proper environment within yourself to be able to tolerate bile acid therapy. Otherwise you may make yourself more vulnerable to having your bile pathways clogged.

 

[Avengers26]

@Bdeep86 When you talk about sugars, Do you mean sugar intake in diet or even natural sugar in vegetables & fruits? Do you avoid such vegetables & fruits?

 

[Bdeep86]

@Bdeep86 When you talk about sugars, Do you mean sugar intake in diet or even natural sugar in vegetables & fruits? Do you avoid such vegetables & fruits?

I am speaking more to refined sugars, HFCS is a no brainer that stuff is basically poison for the liver as well. Although I think in the beginning stages even sugar from fruits should be limited.

 

[Bdeep86]

I am speaking more to refined sugars, HFCS is a no brainer that stuff is basically poison for the liver as well. Although I think in the beginning stages even sugar from fruits should be limited.

Another aspect of my method that I am comfortable with putting out there is avoiding refined vegetable oils like the plague. Refined vegetable oils, seed oils, margarine should be avoided by anyone in this situation. Those will make everything much worse.

 

[adreno]

I tried one cap (250mg) of Tudca yesterday. It made me extremely agitated and aggressive. I have since found out that it increases thyroid hormone – this is likely the cause as I don't tolerate anything that stimulates the thyroid. I'm wondering if I have Grave's; however when my thyroid tests have always come back in the normal range. It seems worse lately though, so maybe it's time for another test.

 

[ljimbo423]

I tried one cap (250mg) of Tudca yesterday. It made me extremely agitated and aggressive. I have since found out that it increases thyroid hormone

Maybe that explains why I get so over-stimulated when I take higher doses of ox bile. I do well on 225 mg a day, but anything over that and I start to feel wired and have trouble sleeping. The last tests I had on my thyroid showed very low-normal levels of both TSH and Free T4, but mid-range normal free T3.

 

[Bdeep86]

I tried one cap (250mg) of Tudca yesterday. It made me extremely agitated and aggressive. I have since found out that it increases thyroid hormone – this is likely the cause as I don't tolerate anything that stimulates the thyroid. I'm wondering if I have Grave's; however when my thyroid tests have always come back in the normal range. It seems worse lately though, so maybe it's time for another test.

Agitation and aggression are hallmarks of liver toxicity. I would say 85-90% of CFS sufferers will not be able to start something like TUDCA right off the bat. It is a part of a later phase and may not be needed all together. This is part of the issue with me releasing out the method to recovering. I have had several people contact me with different agents that manipulate bile and manipulate bile receptors. I know people are desperate to get well.

But the method I am using is a process and it takes time. Timing of when various agents are introduced is very important. It is true that much of our thyroid conversion takes place in our livers, I think issues with low thyroid and low thyroid conversion are mostly due to liver dysfunction. Like I said a couple times on here, TUDCA / UDCA are great tools, but if the proper environment is not created before taking these. They won't work, for most people with severe cases. They could make toxicity worse, or, they could open up a floodgate of backed up fat, toxins, metals...ect that will wind up clogging the bile pathways.