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Naviaux study & OAT Panel: Fumonisins inhibit sphingolipid production

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Happy New Year to everybody! I'm looking for people who understand Naviaux et al's analysis of sphingolipid problems, and I want to know if anyone else has noticed this connection:

I've just gotten my OAT results from Great Plains, showing a high level of tricarballylic acid (the 9th metabolite on the list). The explanation says that this could be from fumonisins, a group of mycotoxins found in corn. (Well, sigh! I avoid anything corn-based like the plague because these foods & vitamins make my guts miserable.)

But this is the part that got my attention:
Tricarballylic acid is an inhibitor of the enzyme aconitase and therefore interferes with the Krebs cycle. The main symptoms of aconitase deficiency are myopathy and exercise intolerance. [Me! Me!]

Next I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumonisin_B1#Toxicodynamics
Because of their similarity, fumonisins are able to inhibit sphingosine-sphinganin-transferases and ceramide synthases and are therefore competitive inhibitors of sphingolipid biosynthesis and metabolism.

So that brings us to Naviaux et al's observation that their ME/CFS study group has impaired sphingolipid metabolism.

Are some of us suffering from fumonisin toxicity? Or could our tricarballylic acid be high for some other reason, having to do with Naviaux's sphingolipid analysis?
Do Naviaux et al even mention tricarballylic acid in their paper? Is it something they measured?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Bioavailability of FB1 can be reduced by treating fumonisin-contaminated corn with glucomannans extracted from the cell wall of the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae. These polysaccharides are able to bind certain mycotoxins and have a 67% binding capacity for fumonisins.

I wonder if glucomannan would be worth a shot for this?
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
I wonder if glucomannan would be worth a shot for this?
Sounds like maybe it would:
2. For Less Polar Mycotoxins: (Modified Mannan-Oligosaccharide, derived from outer cell walls of Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast.) Broad spectrum in absorbing both polar and less polar mycotoxins, e.g. aflatoxin, zearalenone, vomitoxin, ochratoxin, fumonisin, T-2 toxin, etc. Glucomannan will not bind drugs, vitamins and minerals. ref www.cenzone-europe.com/Eng/MicrobondEn.htm
http://www.newhealthoptions.org/?page_id=619
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
As it turns out, I have a bottle of Jarrow Saccharomyces boulardii, which has MOS added (200 mg/cap). I suppose I'll give it a try again. It didn't seem to achieve anything when I was taking it last December-to-April.

Edit: Well, that was fun! It gave me gut cramps taking it 15 minutes after dinner. I guess I'll try it between meals next time.
 
Last edited:

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
@picante I'm interested in this one. My son also had high tricarballylic acid in his OATS test (urine), but the commentary in Australia was quite different:

IF TRICARBALLYLATE HIGH:
Causes: Intestinal bacterial overgrowth, Associated with high dietary carbohydrate,
Probably due to microaerophilic bacteria
Symptoms/Conditions
Elements tightly bound by tricarballylate causing decreased intestinal absorption
(Magnesium, Calcium, Zinc)
TREATMENT:
- Magnesium, 400mg/day
- Calcium 800mg/day
- Zinc 40mg/d
- Restricted carbohydrate diet
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
As it turns out, I have a bottle of Jarrow Saccharomyces boulardii, which has MOS added (200 mg/cap). I suppose I'll give it a try again. It didn't seem to achieve anything when I was taking it last December-to-April.

Edit: Well, that was fun! It gave me gut cramps taking it 15 minutes after dinner. I guess I'll try it between meals next time.

I can't tolerate the Saccharomyces. I've tried, but it's a no-go.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
@picante I'm interested in this one. My son also had high tricarballylic acid in his OATS test (urine), but the commentary in Australia was quite different:
I did a search and found your lab was Nutripath. The sample report I found has tricarballylic acid under Bacterial/Dysbiosis Markers.

My report from Great Plains Lab has it under Yeast and Fungal Markers. The whole quote from the Interpretation section:
High tricarballylic acid (propane-1,2,3-tricarboxylic acid) (Marker 9) could be caused by the intake of corn or corn-based food contaminated with fumonisins, a group of mycotoxins produced primarily by F. verticillioides, and other related species. Tricarballylic acid is released from fumonisins during passage through the gastrointestinal tract. Tricarballylic acid is an inhibitor of the enzyme aconitase and therefore interferes with the Krebs cycle . The main symptoms of aconitase deficiency are myopathy and exercise intolerance. It may also act as a magnesium chelator.

Tricarballylic acid is also metabolite of a component of a substance in modified corn starch, octenylsuccinic acid, found in a number of infant formulas such as Nutramigen, Vivonex, and Pregestimil. In addition, tricarballylic acid is a byproduct of beet sugar and maple sugar refining and might appear after ingestion of these sugars. Tricarballylic acid is also released from fumonisins upon certain food processing conditions. Clinical syndromes due to the intact mycotoxin are rare and characterized by abdominal pain and diarrhea. A specific role for fumonisins in the development of neural tube defects was suggested after the appearance of a cluster of such defects in Texas associated with consumption of corn from the heavily fumonisin-contaminated 1989 corn crop. More recent studies have shown that fumonisin B1 inhibits folate metabolism in cultured cells.
That last sentence may explain why I haven't been tolerating methylfolate. It makes me depressed.
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
@picante Thank you for this.

We start with a new doctor next month, and this is one thing I'll be following up on.

Your is probably more current than mine. I don't have a lot of confidence in the Australian lab's interpretations.

In this comment of yours:
More recent studies have shown that fumonisin B1 inhibits folate metabolism in cultured cells.
That last sentence may explain why I haven't been tolerating methylfolate. It makes me depressed.

I would have thought it would increase your mfolate need, or are you saying it makes you ultrasensitive?

My son doesn't really tolerate much B1. He can take it, but he just feels poorly on the stuff. It seems to slow everything down.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
I would have thought it would increase your mfolate need, or are you saying it makes you ultrasensitive?
I would need a lot more information to know what's doing it, but I am ultrasensitive to mfolate. Methyl donors of all kinds are something I have to be careful with. I don't think methyl B12 falls into that category, though. It doesn't act like a methyl donor given my reactions; it acts like a user of methyl groups. I seem to have low histamine a lot of the time, though (according to my labs and symptoms).
My son doesn't really tolerate much B1.
Just to be clear, fumonisin B1 is just a label for a variety of fumonisin. AFAIK, it has nothing to do with thiamine.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Do you remember what sort of reaction it gives you?

More shortness of breath and some neurological symptoms, like dizziness and exhaustion. I think. It's been awhile.

FWIW, I have issues with all kinds of fungi, including yeasts and mushrooms. Brewer's yeast is the only one where I don't keel over. ;)
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Just to be clear, fumonisin B1 is just a label for a variety of fumonisin. AFAIK, it has nothing to do with thiamine.

:oops: Thanks for clearing that up!

Corn and corn syrup isn't a big part of our diet - we eat a standard old-fashioned Australian diet with nothing in the way of processed food or anything I can find with corn syrup. I've read that corn is a bigger part of the US diet than it is here - maybe that's why your interpretation focuses on it more as a source of tricarballylic acid?

Mycotoxins are a bit of an issue in the grains industry under some weather conditions (humid/rain during ripening/harvest) or poor storage conditions.

Hmmm, maybe the test at https://www.vcstest.com/ thing (based on Shoemaker's approach) might pick up on that?
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Corn and corn syrup isn't a big part of our diet - we eat a standard old-fashioned Australian diet

....you wouldn't be the first Australian to tell me that. ;) I avoid corn products, too, but it's true that there's corn syrup in many processed foods in the US. Food companies are edging back because "high fructose corn syrup" was a pretty big deal. Now they're campaigning to just call it fructose so no one will know it's made of corn! At least, last I heard. Not sure they'll get away with that, given that corn is a pretty common allergen and food sensitivity.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Now they're campaigning to just call it fructose so no one will know it's made of corn!
Gaaaah! We have so little right to know!
I've read that corn is a bigger part of the US diet than it is here - maybe that's why your interpretation focuses on it more as a source of tricarballylic acid?
No doubt. But I looked up fumonisins, and they're in a lot of grains, including rice and oats. There are standards for fumonisin levels in animal feed, and I saw that the levels permissible for poultry are much higher than those for beef and pork and other meats. This may explain why I haven't been tolerating chicken. Every time I eat it, I get ammonia-smelling urine and severe brain slowdown/fog.
 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
We don' eat anything much with additives any more anyway, but this?
.... Food companies are ... campaigning to just call it fructose so no one will know it's made of corn!
Soooo annoying. How are we supposed to know?

By the way, I'd never even seen a fresh corn cob until some farmer brought them into a local market when I was in late high school. Corn just didn't feature in a region that grew wheat and sheep.

No doubt. But I looked up fumonisins, and they're in a lot of grains, including rice and oats. There are standards for fumonisin levels in animal feed, and I saw that the levels permissible for poultry are much higher than those for beef and pork and other meats. This may explain why I haven't been tolerating chicken. Every time I eat it, I get ammonia-smelling urine and severe brain slowdown/fog.

Maybe I'll keep better notes about where we buy our chicken - the butcher's chicken is 'free range' (which can mean slightly less caged), and supermarket chicken isn't.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
We don' eat anything much with additives any more anyway, but this?

Soooo annoying. How are we supposed to know?

Corn is hidden in a lot of food additives, it goes by over 100 names... cornallergygirl has a pretty good list of additives on her website.

Worse is that it's hidden in many supplements and also in a surprising number of drugs and medical products .... I'm allergic and have found it in ascorbic acid, methyl B12 from most compounding pharmacies, levothyroxine, antibiotics, dextrose IV bags, etc.

Additionally, if it's grown with glyphosate, it can inhibit mitochondrial function...