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Can antibiotics/herxing be dangerous?

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
Under the guidance of a GI I saw, I am planning to start taking ..

Ampicillin
Flagyl
Nystatin (I think he prescribes this as a precaution to being on abx, though I do have a Candida issue)

I have tried a lot of other approaches so far and I am just deteriorating, so want to see what happens if I tackle my gut infection head-on. However, I am little bit hesitant because garlic cloves alone pretty much had me bedridden, so I am anticipating a severe die-off reaction.

I am just wondering -- can herxes every be actively dangerous, or will it likely be a lot of unpleasantness, with, hopefully, some improvement once I make it out the other side?

I am concerned about taking two abx. at once but understand they can work better in conjunction?
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
My health dropped from chronically poor to actual ME when an alternative healthcare practitioner told me that I needed to push through a herx. So yes, they can be dangerous.
 

Vojta

Senior Member
Messages
167
Location
Czech Republic
I think it's very dangerous that doctors and patients call every worsening from medication herx. In reality it is usually side effect from drug toxicity. Antibiotics done permanent damage to me. I went from 25-30% chronic illness to 0-2% agony and it doesn't go away. It seems that they caused most likely some secondary mitochondrial dysfunction. One reckless known doctor also dismissed my complaints about toxicity as herx. Meanwhile it damaged my nervous system. He still doesn't give shit now because in his mind everybody has lyme and everything is herx.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
I think it's very dangerous that doctors and patients call every worsening from medication herx. In reality it is usually side effect from drug toxicity. Antibiotics done permanent damage to me. I went from 25-30% chronic illness to 0-2% agony and it doesn't go away. It seems that they caused most likely some secondary mitochondrial dysfunction. One reckless known doctor also dismissed my complaints about toxicity as herx. Meanwhile it damaged my nervous system. He still doesn't give shit now because in his mind everybody has lyme and everything is herx.

But then how are we supposed to treat these infections? I think this gastro I saw is intelligent enough to know which abx. to prescribe, since gut dysbiosis is a strong area-of-interest for him. Isn't the issue more in taking random abx. and further messing up your microbiome? I don't know. I don't see what choice I have, to be honest.
 

Vojta

Senior Member
Messages
167
Location
Czech Republic
It depends on your reaction to atbx and how long you should take them. You should be very careful if it is anything longer than 1 month and most of the year. Important is to stop immediately if it makes you more or very sick.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
It depends on your reaction to atbx and how long you should take them. You should be very careful if it is anything longer than 1 month and most of the year. Important is to stop immediately if it makes you more or very sick.

But doesn't killing bacteria make you feel sick anyway? I think this abx. course is only for 1-2 weeks.
 
Messages
15,786
Jarisch-Herxheimer reactions are only widely accepted as occurring when a specific type of bacteria, spirochetes, die off and produce endotoxins. A strictly-defined reaction consists of fever, hypotension, headache, and pains - similar to the immune reaction you get during a flu. It's sometimes argued that a similar reaction occurs in other situations or features other symptoms, but that is very much debatable.

If not experiencing the normal symptoms, especially no fever or hypotension, it's probably not a good idea to assume it's a herxheimer reaction. Headaches are often a nasty side-effect of drugs, and can be a sign that something dangerous is going on with regards to blood pressure, etc.

My own experience in treating Lyme with antibiotics was that I had fevers and hypotension around the same time every day. One antibiotic (doxycycline) made me nauseous in a motion-sick way 30-120 minutes after taking it, which was a side-effect I could tolerate if I didn't eat first and mostly kept my eyes closed.

"Pushing through" negative side effects is usually a bad idea, and the existence of limited herxheimer symptoms in a specific context shouldn't be used as an excuse to push through other symptoms, or in a case where dying spirochetes aren't involved.
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
I think it's very dangerous that doctors and patients call every worsening from medication herx. In reality it is usually side effect from drug toxicity.
I totally agree with you. I think people have been brainwashed into believing that we have to have a herx when we take medications, especially antibiotics. A "true" herx should only last one to two hours and usually occurs soon after taking the first dose of the antibiotic. And most infections don't cause herxing.
 

Mij

Messages
2,353
@outdamnspot

I took clarithromycin and flagyl for 10 days to treat an infection years ago and felt dizzy for a short while and a little sick possibly from flagyl at the start, but it eventually subsided.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
No! Killing bacteria should not make you feel sick.

But don't bacteria release endotoxins when they die? I'd read that in regard to Candida and definitely feel worse in a very specific way when I take anything that kills Candida. Then, typically, I have a bowel movement (with visible yeast) and feel much better afterwards.
 
Messages
15,786
But don't bacteria release endotoxins when they die? I'd read that in regard to Candida and definitely feel worse in a very specific way when I take anything that kills Candida.
Only a few bacteria release endotoxins when they die. It's limited to spirochetes like Syphilis and Lyme.

Candida is a fungus, not a bacteria. It definitely would not release endotoxins.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
Only a few bacteria release endotoxins when they die. It's limited to spirochetes like Syphilis and Lyme.

Candida is a fungus, not a bacteria. It definitely would not release endotoxins.

Someone told me it releases acetaldehyde when it dies. Is that incorrect?
 
Messages
15,786
Someone told me it releases acetaldehyde when it dies. Is that incorrect?
Acetaldehyde isn't an endotoxin, and exposure to it produces different symptoms. I'm not seeing a lot of good sources regarding it (a lot of blogs and candida cure sites), but it sounds like it is produced by living candida, not dying candida.
 

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
My health dropped from chronically poor to actual ME when an alternative healthcare practitioner told me that I needed to push through a herx. So yes, they can be dangerous.


It probably depends on what is causing the ME CFS.

In my case, I am on multiple antibiotics for Borrelia infection and steadily getting better.

My weekly Herx reaction after taking a biofilm 'buster' is worth it although very unpleasant.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
Only a few bacteria release endotoxins when they die. It's limited to spirochetes like Syphilis and Lyme.

So gut overgrowths like Streptococcus shouldn't produce a herx? In other words, if I herx on antibiotics can that be used as a kind of diagnostic tool to point towards what else might be infecting me?
 
Messages
15,786
So gut overgrowths like Streptococcus shouldn't produce a herx?
No, only the death of spirochetes produces a recognized Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction. An untreated infection might produce symptoms, and the death of non-spirochetes might produce a reaction, but those are not a herx.

Before blaming symptoms on a reaction to die-off, it's a good idea to fully look into whether such a reaction is known to exist for that infection. Otherwise we risk ignoring serious side-effects which should be avoided.

In other words, if I herx on antibiotics can that be used as a kind of diagnostic tool to point towards what else might be infecting me?
If it fits the strict definition of a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, it would support the suggestion that there was/is an infection by a spirochete. Some people recommend trying doxycycline or a similar Lyme-killing antibiotic to determine if there is a Lyme infection, due to the widespread inaccuracies of standard Lyme tests.