CD8+ T-Cell Deficiency, Epstein-Barr Virus Infection, Vitamin D Deficiency, and Steps to Autoimmunit

[wastwater]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ad/2012/189096/

 

[frederic83]

If I understand it well, a subset of B cells infected with a latent EBV that should be destroyed by CD8 + T cells, get locked to the membranes of some organ cells, and other T cells are trying to destroy these locked "autoreactive" B cells. The result is a never ending autoimmune response because the T cells do not have that ability to destroy defective B cells attached to the cells, only CD8 + can do this. A genetic or some other environmental causes can explain the lack of CD8 + T cells.
This process takes years to install.

Do you understand it that way ?

 

[wastwater]

I didn't understand it at all so thanks for some kind of explaination.
Ive just seen its been posted a few times before also

 

[frederic83]

Will the organ cells infected with EBV infected B-cells die at one moment ? Or are they immortal ?
Long term Rituximab should work if they die.

Moreover, Are the ectopic B-cell follicles self-persistent ?

 

[frederic83]

A possible treatment could be CD8+ injections to target the infected B cells and an antiviral.

I think I read an article about a former australian MD that got CFS and was in a moderate state. He worked with an australian researcher and injected himself CD8+. I'm not sure, though. If someone has an idea...

 

[Lolinda]

Great paper! Thanks @wastwater for posting and @frederic83 for calling my attention to it!! This could be just my story...

To everyone on this thread:

• did you get tested for CD8+? results?
• do you have any autoantibodies?

I am positive for alpha1 receptor antibodies causing POTS. (the Celltrend test panel includes also the beta adrenergic and muscarinic receptor antibodies meanwhile underpinned to cause CFS by the plasmapheresis study of Prof Scheibenbogen: they succeeded to cause temporary relief by removing antibodies and replacing them via IVIG. - Temporary because these beasts are reproduced after a while)

--> I added CD8+ to my questionnaire (in preparation) to all people who have Celltrend antibody test results. Thanks to you guys!

And if anyone interested, here my old CD8+ results. These were done just November 2013, when I was sliding from CFS into ME.

Regarding treatment:

• My ME/CFS resolved within 2 weeks by changing diet to keto-paleo
• After resolving ME in April 2014, I still had a reactivated EBV in January 2015, see test results here. Against this, I took zinc (Doctors Best Pepzingi, 16 mg), retested in September 2015: gone. I can't prove that it was indeed the zinc or sthg else.
• CD8+ was April 2015 at 19% (norm: 14-38). Will retest now. I still have autoimmune POTS, that's why I am so interested.
• I took vit D at various times over all the years because in 2010, when I already had bad bouts of concentration difficulties, I tested unmeasurably low for vit D. Since, I had low values again and again whenever stopping supplementation. Even daily sunshine in summer (almost always eating lunch on balcony, etc) and mackarel (100g, several times a week) are not enough in me.

Does anyone have ideas how to increase CD8+, apart from vit D?

 

[frederic83]

I was not tested for CD8 nor auto-antibodies. I'm positive for EBV and no other virus, that's what I know, so far.

I doubt you will increase CD8+ with vitamin D alone. Personally, I never felt well on vitamin D. Probably because it is converted to fast in 1,25 dihydroxivitamin D3.

A culture of CD8+ then injected IV will probably make a difference, but I never heard of it.

In the paper, the author suggests Rituximab to deplete infected B cells + an antiviral as a treatment.
Maybe methotrexate should be considered too. Methotrexate has be found beneficial in some pwME and is known to deplete some type of B cells in some people or, at least, has a modulation effect on some B cells. I did not read a lot of stories of recovery with methotrexate alone, though.

Fluge and Mella found methotrexate was beneficial in one patient: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19566965

So, an affordable treatment could be methotrexate + an antiviral. Who wants to try ?

 

[wastwater]

Think I will try zinc,thanks

 

[Lolinda]

Think I will try zinc,thanks

I would be curious to learn if it works for you, let it be resolving EBV or any effects on CD8+ levels, so pls report back! While I resolved my EBV and improved a little bit my CD8+, it could come back any time... In the hope that it helps your efforts, I updated my post above, so now you see exact dates and supplemental quantities.

 

[frederic83]

I took a look at the author's bibliography, Michael P. Pender.

He actually treated a MS patient with CD8+ and says it was beneficial and safe: http://msj.sagepub.com/content/20/11/1541.full

This study provides proof of principle that adoptive immunotherapy with autologous EBV-specific T cells can be safely administered to the patient with MS. The improvements in the patient’s symptoms and signs indicate a beneficial effect, which is supported by the reduction in disease activity on MRI and by the decrease in intrathecal IgG production. These effects can be explained by the killing of EBV-infected B cells in the CNS by the adoptively transferred CD8+ T cells. A clinical trial is needed to determine therapeutic efficacy across the clinical spectrum of MS. This study has implications for the treatment of other chronic autoimmune diseases where EBV also has a pathogenic role.

 

[Gijs]

Great paper! Thanks @wastwater for posting and @frederic83 for calling my attention to it!! This could be just my story...

To everyone on this thread:

• did you get tested for CD8+? results?
• do you have any autoantibodies?

I am positive for alpha1 receptor antibodies causing POTS. (the Celltrend test panel includes also the beta adrenergic and muscarinic receptor antibodies meanwhile underpinned to cause CFS by the plasmapheresis study of Prof Scheibenbogen: they succeeded to cause temporary relief by removing antibodies and replacing them via IVIG. - Temporary because these beasts are reproduced after a while)

--> I added CD8+ to my questionnaire (in preparation) to all people who have Celltrend antibody test results. Thanks to you guys!

And if anyone interested, here my old CD8+ results. These were done just November 2013, when I was sliding from CFS into ME.
View attachment 18244

Regarding treatment:

• My ME/CFS resolved within 2 weeks by changing diet to keto-paleo
• After resolving ME in April 2014, I still had a reactivated EBV in January 2015, see test results here. Against this, I took zinc (Doctors Best Pepzingi, 16 mg), retested in September 2015: gone. I can't prove that it was indeed the zinc or sthg else.
• CD8+ was April 2015 at 19% (norm: 14-38). Will retest now. I still have autoimmune POTS, that's why I am so interested.
• I took vit D at various times over all the years because in 2010, when I already had bad bouts of concentration difficulties, I tested unmeasurably low for vit D. Since, I had low values again and again whenever stopping supplementation. Even daily sunshine in summer (almost always eating lunch on balcony, etc) and mackarel (100g, several times a week) are not enough in me.

Does anyone have ideas how to increase CD8+, apart from vit D?

I don't think you can say you have autoimmune POTS at this point. Elevated antibodies are found in healthy people without POTS or CFS too. These antibodies are not unigue. There is more wrong then 'only' autoimmunity.

 

[Lolinda]

I don't think you can say you have autoimmune POTS at this point. Elevated antibodies are found in healthy people without POTS or CFS too. These antibodies are not unigue. There is more wrong then 'only' autoimmunity.

I think I can! (with some moderation owing to an obviously new and developing field of research...)
I liked you challenging me and answered in all detail here, in order to not drive this thread about CD8+, ebv and vit D off-topic. Comments welcome!

 

[halcyon]

Elevated antibodies are found in healthy people without POTS or CFS too. These antibodies are not unigue. There is more wrong then 'only' autoimmunity.

They have confirmed the antibodies from the POTS patients are pathogenic, and they have shown exactly in what way they act on the various receptors. I've never found this argument very convincing. Just because healthy people make antibodies that bind in an assay doesn't mean that they are pathogenic. Likewise for the POTS patients, but again, they have proven the POTS patients antibodies are pathogenic. You would have to prove that the healthy controls antibodies are also pathogenic to make this argument.

 

[Gijs]

I think I can! (with some moderation owing to an obviously new and developing field of research...)
I liked you challenging me and answered in all detail here, in order to not drive this thread about CD8+, ebv and vit D off-topic. Comments welcome!

Hey, which expert did say you have an autoimmune disease? I would like to know, every immune expert i have spoken with these results ( Transcell lab Germany) said that at this moment you can not say it is an autoimmune disease.

 

[Gijs]

They have confirmed the antibodies from the POTS patients are pathogenic, and they have shown exactly in what way they act on the various receptors. I've never found this argument very convincing. Just because healthy people make antibodies that bind in an assay doesn't mean that they are pathogenic. Likewise for the POTS patients, but again, they have proven the POTS patients antibodies are pathogenic. You would have to prove that the healthy controls antibodies are also pathogenic to make this argument.

Who is 'they'? And do you have a publication for this prove?

 

[halcyon]

Who is 'they'? And do you have a publication for this prove?

http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/3/1/e000755.full
http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/10/04/europace.euw154.abstract

 

[Gijs]

http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/3/1/e000755.full
http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/10/04/europace.euw154.abstract

Thank you. Elevated antibodies is no prove for autoimmune disease. There is much more research needed.

 

[pattismith]

low CD8 here too...

CD4 = 806/mm3 (300-1300)
CD8 = 181 (200-1000)

CD4/CD8 = 4.46 (1-3)