Question for megadose B12 users: Can one develop ’tolerance’?

[nilsoskaraxel]

Hi,

Thanks to Freddd’s help I’ve managed to recover almost completely from an advanced textbook B12 deficiency. But two years after starting treatment I still need megadoses of Mecbl, Adocbl, and mfolate to keep neurological symptoms from resurfacing (which they do in a matter of hours or even minutes when a dose starts to wear off).

I started off with injections but soon found that time-released B12 patches worked better for me, since they provide a more even stream of mb12 over the course of a day. The patches are extremely well absorbed (comparable to injections; way more effective than sublinguals) and release their 5,000 mcg mb12 over 16–24 hours.

I used to apply two patches per each 24 hour period, one in the morning and one in the evening, but by the end of each patch’s ”lifetime”, symptoms would resurface, and then vanish as soon as I put on a fresh patch.

So I had a dip each morning and evening as the oldest patch started to run out of juice.

Said and done, recently I added a mid-day patch as well to safeguard me against those lapses and dips and have me covered 24/7. So now I was doing three patches à 5,000 mcg per 24 hours, evenly distributed over the day, corresponding to one and a half shot of MB12.

But what happened was that instead of experiencing a smooth stream of MB12 energy 24/7, I had deficiency symptoms started popping up thrice a day instead of twice, preceding each patch switch by a few hours.

* * *

@Freddd, and many others, advise to keep adding MB12 until more makes no difference. To me, more always makes a difference. That is, each time I take an additional patch, shot, or sublingual B12, I experience a surge of neurological brightening that is very physical, distinct, and non-placeboish (for example, tingling goes away within minutes). So conventional wisdom would have it that I keep upping my dosages until I reach some kind of saturation.

But on the other hand, my little experiment seems to indicate another tendency.

Since symptoms return by the end of each patch’s lifetime, even though I have two other patches going at the same time, it seems as if my brain and body reacts to every relative drop in blood levels of MB12, no matter how high the absolute level is at that given time. It also seems as if the improvements perceived with higher dosages are nullified as the body’s demands goes up in a decompensating kind of fashion.

It is known that if someone gets accustomed to megadoses of vitamin C and suddenly decreases their intake drastically, they will develop scurvy even if they didn’t have it to begin with. Could something similar be at play here? Am I feeding a hungry ghost? Or should I persevere in upping MB12 until I don’t feel anything from a given dose?

If there are any other megadose B12 users out there I would love to hear your take on this.

I’ve sent a private message to @Freddd but he seems to have left the forum.

(Yes, I do have mfolate, adocbl, and cofactors dialled in pretty well. I know what good methylation feels like.)

 

[cman89]

I have always used sublingual absorption, and it works pretty well for my needs. So I cant relate exactly to the patch method, but I can tell you that I have experienced these so called 'dips' before, and I am actually working on a dosing setup that will allow me to split the dosage somehow through the day, to attempt to treat some migraine symptoms that have arisen in the last few months. That being said, before my migraines appeared, I would dose one sublingual b12 every morning, and I would, after a while notice that it seemed to have less an effect. Some of that could also be down to the brand I was using, and the fact that b12 degrades over time, but I do think it is possible to build up a tolerance, as long as you use consistently and aren't all over the place on dosing. If I were you, I would keep up the b12 regimen, and try to continue tinkering to avoid those "dips" as best as you can. Then again,, if you can tolerate it, taking occasional breaks can be a good thing. I try to skip supplements a few days a month, just to keep my body from getting too hammered by nutrients. That being said, if its something your body needs, then it needs it, and only you can really determine that level.

 

[skwag]

This is my understanding of what Freddd has said in the past. Hopefully I've got it right!

1) MB12 need seems to top out at 30mg/day injected. More does not have much effect.
2) The dosing schedule is important though. Some people require 4 x 7.5mg injections roughly 6 hours apart. Others can do 3 x 10mg or 2 x 15mg per day. It seems to be a personal issue.

I'm not sure how much of the 5mg gets absorbed from the patch, but even if it were 100% like an injection, you could still double the amount of patches you are using and you might expect to see further benefit.

 

[nilsoskaraxel]

This is my understanding of what Freddd has said in the past. Hopefully I've got it right!

1) MB12 need seems to top out at 30mg/day injected. More does not have much effect.
2) The dosing schedule is important though. Some people require 4 x 7.5mg injections roughly 6 hours apart. Others can do 3 x 10mg or 2 x 15mg per day. It seems to be a personal issue.

I'm not sure how much of the 5mg gets absorbed from the patch, but even if it were 100% like an injection, you could still double the amount of patches you are using and you might expect to see further benefit.

Thanks, that’s helpful info! I take it that there is an absolute ”roof” or a point of saturation and that I have some leeway before I hit it. I’ll just keep going then. Yes, subjectively the patches’ absorption rate seems to in the ballpark of what SC injections deliver. They’re surprisingly powerful.

 

[nilsoskaraxel]

Then again,, if you can tolerate it, taking occasional breaks can be a good thing. I try to skip supplements a few days a month, just to keep my body from getting too hammered by nutrients. That being said, if its something your body needs, then it needs it, and only you can really determine that level.

Skipping is unfortunately not an option since allowing symptoms to creep back could undermine much of the healing work done so far. Cutting down on MB12 would not be a matter of pushing through subjective discomfort, as with caffeine or nicotine withdrawal, it’s a matter of potentially harmful symptoms coming back that I definitely need to keep at bay.

 

[cman89]

Skipping is unfortunately not an option since allowing symptoms to creep back could undermine much of the healing work done so far. Cutting down on MB12 would not be a matter of pushing through subjective discomfort, as with caffeine or nicotine withdrawal, it’s a matter of potentially harmful symptoms coming back that I definitely need to keep at bay.

Thats understandable. Some folks cant afford to take breaks on certain supplements. I do agree that if you feel that b vitamins and other supplements have helped healing, then its worth it to try to push through side effects in some manner. I know for sure that starting and stopping certain supplements can be very problematic for people, especially if you are cycling supplements while adding others in.

 

[cman89]

It is known that if someone gets accustomed to megadoses of vitamin C and suddenly decreases their intake drastically, they will develop scurvy even if they didn’t have it to begin with. Could something similar be at play here? Am I feeding a hungry ghost? Or should I persevere in upping MB12 until I don’t feel anything from a given dose?

Do you have references for this Vit C phenomenon? I would love to read up on it if possible.

 

[skwag]

Thanks, that’s helpful info! I take it that there is an absolute ”roof” or a point of saturation and that I have some leeway before I hit it. I’ll just keep going then. Yes, subjectively the patches’ absorption rate seems to in the ballpark of what SC injections deliver. They’re surprisingly powerful.

Yeah, I've never read of or heard Freddd mention anybody who got benefit going above 30mg/day injected. So, with the limited info we have, there does seem to be a roof.

One other thing to consider is Freddd's idea of "penetrative dose," which refers to the amount of MeCbl needed so that a significant amount enters the central nervous system (CNS). For injection, I believe Freddd says a penetrative dose is greater than or equal to 6.5 mg. For sublingual absorption over an hour or two, it is 50mg.

The idea is to get the serum concentration of MeCbl high enough that significant diffusion into the CNS occurs. Of course, not everybody needs or benefits from these high doses.

Because the patch probably releases the MeCbl more slowly, serum concentrations may not increase to level of equivalent sized injections. It is an open question what would constitute a penetrative dose using patches.

Anyway, something to think about.