• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

New Mella talk, exciting reveals

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I think we're talking about two different studies then for sure, Sidereal. The authors concluded that the slightly but statistically-significantly elevated adrenaline was a compensatory mechanism to deal with lower energy. That was the conclusion the paper reached!

What struck me was how willing the authors were to change their POV when confronted with evidence that contradicted their initial opinion. I wondered why everyone can't be that flexible.

-J

We're definitely talking about the same study. Wyller is a major psychobabbler in Norway, he has put out many papers since the failed clonidine trial arguing that CFS is a sustained stress response. The fact that clonidine made his participants worse compared to placebo has not deterred him. Here's a thread where an editorial he wrote more recently rehashing the same old ideas about stress was discussed:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...athophysiology-diagnosis-and-treatment.41857/
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Are these metabolic findings which we can see comming in the last months really that significant? i gave the Naviaux´s paper to read to 2 scientists outside ME field and they told me that it looks interesting but it´s not enough to do any conclusion and this paper needs much more to convice the scientific community.

Absolutely we need more proof than just one study! And we need the work done on more people. The study is a preliminary study and its results will have to be repeated. From what F & M are saying, and from what Hansen was saying, it looks like we have some repeated findings but not all.

Then there are those who simply distrust metabolomics as a method, period.

I think this is just a misunderstanding of what Dr. Naviaux said

In context, it seemed clearer he understood and to some extent agreed, but there were aspects with which he disagreed.

We're definitely talking about the same study. Wyller is a major psychobabbler in Norway

:( :( :(

Yes, I'm talking about this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24493300

The conclusions they reached in that paper, at least, were that it was part of a compensatory mechanism, and that therefore it was an ineffective treatment.

-J
 

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
Yes. You're referring to the IACFS conference later this month in Florida. I'm not certain these revelations of who will respond to what are going to be as revealing or groundbreaking as we hope. I've been wrong before though and I hope I am now.
Hopefully the results will be actual blood markers of response and not subjective things like NKC function, deactivated viruses and treadmill tests again in the case of Ampligen
I have the feeling we are talking about blood markers. But let's see.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
:( :( :(

Yes, I'm talking about this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24493300

The conclusions they reached in that paper, at least, were that it was part of a compensatory mechanism, and that therefore it was an ineffective treatment.

:(

It's pretty awful how researchers are prepared to say one (reasonable) thing in order to get published in a peer-reviewed journal but then continue to push discredited theories as if nothing happened. What I'd really like to know is whether he prescribes this drug to patients despite the trial showing that it's useless/harmful.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
:(

It's pretty awful how researchers are prepared to say one (reasonable) thing in order to get published in a peer-reviewed journal but then continue to push discredited theories as if nothing happened. What I'd really like to know is whether he prescribes this drug to patients despite the trial showing that it's useless/harmful.

It's remarkable.

"But you soundly disproved theory X."

Wyller et al:

71901a370f3e6bb9080c0a5c9266edb24fc2b1be7f15c3cae92bf87696ac0df0.jpg
 

Neunistiva

Senior Member
Messages
442
In context, it seemed clearer he understood and to some extent agreed, but there were aspects with which he disagreed.

I was just talking about hybernation and dauer state, not about the paper results and conclusion. Dr. Naviaux never said we were hybernating or in dauer state, that's all I'm trying to say.
 

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
2,107
Location
Seattle, WA USA
The adrenaline was the only thing that kept them going. (Though maybe this IS the study you're referring to?) I keep this one in my back pocket for all those "it's just anxiety" folks.

Would this be what is behind the "wired but tired" symptom we so often have? That makes sense to me.

I am so happy to see all of this now coming together.

Thank you @Marky90 for your detailed note taking!
 

Marky90

Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance
Messages
1,253
Would this be what is behind the "wired but tired" symptom we so often have? That makes sense to me.

I am so happy to see all of this now coming together.

Thank you @Marky90 for your detailed note taking!

i can only speak for myself, but my adrenaline metabolism was fine when i tested it. and i felt like shit when taking it^^
 
Messages
88
Location
Dutchy
he didn't say hibernation, but actually "dauer-like state". Dauer is an hypo metabolic state displayed by certain nematodes when environmental conditions are hard, like when food is scarce.
I propose a new name for this disease - Systemic Hypometabolic Intolerance To Exercise (disease) - not sure what the BPS crowd would make of that... :rofl::rofl:

what about Dauer's Disease? or does it have to be named after a person not a critter
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Whether it's 100% true that it was actually the vaccine or not, nobody really knows.

When you are ill within a few days of a vaccine and can't walk/stand within a few weeks, it's pretty clear the vaccine was the trigger.

The key is that vaccine triggers are rare versus infectious triggers, similar to Guillain Barre syndrome where infection is the most common trigger. It's probably still the same immunological process that goes wrong (flu vaccine vs flu infection).